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Re: long antenna

From gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics
Subject Re: long antenna
Date 2015-11-26 09:21 -0600
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <n3781v$70b$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <3nmshc-1o2.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <564bc61f$0$21567$b1db1813$79461190@news.astraweb.com> <12e478ab-104b-4424-ac14-bc6281f88da4@googlegroups.com> <d876892a-0659-4146-b390-9a96ce19419c@googlegroups.com> <Xw35y.105419$ij2.8199@fx08.iad>

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On 11/24/2015 2:12 PM, benj wrote:
> On 11/24/2015 02:39 PM, RichD wrote:
>> On November 17, Timo wrote:

>> Sometimes, the cord gets wrapped into a loop, how does
>> that affect the physics?
>
> Of course it does! The rule in EM is that inductance is determined ONLY
> by geometry (and material properties, natch) Same goes for capacitance.
> These are two key parameters in antennas.
>
> And you may recall I talked about antenna "aperture". What that is would
> be pretty obvious in a perfect dish. It's a hole about the size of the
> dish that collects radiation. What isn't so obvious is that the same
> parameter can be defined for ANY antenna. It's in effect representing a
> hole the size of which admits the energy that the given antenna collects.
>
> And I should point out that a larger dish may NOT collect more energy.
> Hence the aperture could be much smaller than the dish size. If part of
> the dish is out of phase with the other part the collected waves may
> cancel. Hence the signal out is reduced. That is why I said above a
> "perfect" dish.

note:
the dish has to "roll off" the edge away from parabolic shape, to 
diminish the back lobe.  if you keep parabolic to the edge, it will 
cause a large back lobe in the antenna pattern where the edge 
diffraction adds in phase, and then you will pick up the temperature of 
the ground (which is quite warm) as noise into your LNA on the dish.
(looking at cold sky dish application, sattilites etc)


>
> Same thing can happen if the wire is too long. Since the signal travels
> DOWN the wire to the radio, there is a delay. And that delay together
> with the geometry of the wire can result in the same kind of phase
> cancellation that reduces the signal rather than increases it.

there is freewhere somewhere on internet for antennas, very easy to see 
this effect on long wires, the antenna pattern splinters up very badly. 
(EZnec ??)


>
> In general, the phrase "long wire antenna" really means: We didn't
> bother to put a real antenna on it, but just attached a piece of wire we
> had available and hoped it worked and it sort of does.
>
> A long wire traveling wave antenna is a different animal and usually
> isn't a long wire, though traveling waves do travel down a wire. A true
> antenna of that type will be terminated on one end like say a rhombic
> antenna so it really consists of just a terminated transmission line.

terminated to eliminate waves going in a direction on the wire


>
> The whole subject is quite complex and very much dependent upon the
> exact details of the system. Quick rules of thumb can easily be quite
> wrong.

and the ground reflection is bigtime consideration up past FM, EZNEC

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Thread

long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 10:42 -0800
  Re: long antenna Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 12:46 -0600
    Re: long antenna Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 20:10 +0100
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-17 20:28 +0000
      Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 16:59 -0500
    Re: long antenna Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-11-18 22:56 +0100
      Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-18 16:57 -0600
        Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-18 23:15 +0000
          Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-18 20:42 -0600
            Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-19 05:29 +0000
              Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-19 08:54 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-19 18:44 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-22 15:32 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 23:16 +0000
            Re: long antenna HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 06:59 -0800
              Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 20:02 -0500
      Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 01:36 -0500
  Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-17 13:28 -0600
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 14:04 -0800
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-17 22:35 +0000
      Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-17 19:28 -0500
        Re: long antenna Timo <timo@physics.uq.edu.au> - 2015-11-17 17:18 -0800
          Re: long antenna RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-24 11:39 -0800
            Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 15:12 -0500
              Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:21 -0600
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 10:05 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 20:05 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 18:39 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 01:46 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 19:55 +0000
            Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 20:04 +0000
              Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-24 16:33 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 22:58 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 09:11 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 19:42 +0000
                Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 11:57 -0800
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 14:52 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 21:12 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 18:58 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 01:37 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 23:45 -0500
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-27 01:01 -0600
                Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 23:31 -0800
                Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:34 -0500
                Re: long antenna "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 09:58 -0800
                Re: long antenna benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 11:46 -0500
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-28 16:42 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-28 22:58 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 07:46 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 19:01 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 14:12 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:43 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:41 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 00:15 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 20:23 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 06:21 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 15:22 -0500
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 20:48 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 17:16 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-30 23:52 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-30 19:59 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-12-01 02:16 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-30 19:20 -0500
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-27 18:53 +0000
              Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:08 -0500
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 06:13 +0000
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 16:25 -0800
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 16:08 -0800
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-20 00:40 +0000
      Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 15:51 -0800
        Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 00:34 +0000
          Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-21 14:37 +0000
            Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-21 19:32 +0000
              Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-22 14:50 +0000
                Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 11:27 -0800
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 19:44 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-22 19:40 +0000
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-23 14:13 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:00 -0500
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-24 13:20 +0000
                Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 13:40 -0500
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-25 13:44 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-23 18:47 +0000
                Re: long antenna jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-24 13:20 +0000
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 19:49 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-24 16:36 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-24 23:00 +0000
                Re: long antenna gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-11-26 16:17 -0600
                Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-26 23:35 +0000
        Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 20:58 -0500
    Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-19 20:09 -0500
  Re: long antenna "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2015-11-24 12:51 -0800
    Re: long antenna benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 00:01 -0500
  Re: long antenna "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 15:36 -0800
    Re: long antenna jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-11-25 23:51 +0000

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