Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration.

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
Newsgroups	aus.aviation
Subject	Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration.
Date	2025-01-25 13:17 +0800
Message-ID	<lvjafdFgsnkU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <op.20tk2vlxbyq249@pvr2.lan> <lvgpdlF3t5nU2@mid.individual.net> <op.20vdh9dzbyq249@pvr2.lan> <lvhkmqF8lmsU1@mid.individual.net> <lvihukFd5foU1@mid.individual.net>

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On 25-Jan-25 6:19 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 25/1/2025 12:59 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 24-Jan-25 4:21 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2025/ 
>>>>>>>> report/ao-2024-038
>>>
>>>>>>>> It's time all public transport aircraft had takeoff
>>>>>>>> performance  monitoring, no matter the size.
>>>
>>>>>>> That isnt going to result in the problem  being
>>>>>>> fixed quickly enough  to  stop an accident
>>>
>>>>>> Well before an abort becomes risky, the system has enough 
>>>>>> informationto  determine whether the crew calculated v1 and vr are 
>>>>>> correct,
>>>
>>>>> Bullshit with that incorrect flaps setting.
>>>
>>>>>> and whether  the aircraft will be able  toboth continue a takeoff, 
>>>>>> and stop, at v1.
>>>
>>>>> Bullshit with that incorrect flaps setting, let alone
>>>>> tell the pilots that the flaps setting is wrong.
>>>
>>>>>  It would make much more sense to compare the
>>>>> actual settings with that has been entered at the
>>>>> preflight config calculations and tell the pilots
>>>>> that they have not set what was required with
>>>>> flaps and boost etc before they actually applied
>>>>> takeoff power and not allow takeoff power to be
>>>>> applied before those were set correctly.
>>>
>>>>>> It can issue an abort alert if not.
>>>
>>>>>  See above
>>>
>>>>>> This covers at least miscalculated v1, miscalculated vr, wrong 
>>>>>> thrust settings, wrong flap settings, starting from the wrong 
>>>>>> intersection, takeoff from the wrong runway, and no doubt others 
>>>>>> that I haven't even thought of.
>>>
>>>>> It would be stupid to try to measure that while taking off
>>>>> instead of doing that before takeoff power is applied
>>>
>>>>> Yes, there is also a different problem with the engines
>>>>> not being able to deliver the power they were assumed
>>>>> to be able to deliver the power they were supposed to
>>>>> be able to deliver in the preflight calculations, but that
>>>>> was not the case in the incident being discussed and
>>>>> it would be much easier to discover than much earlier
>>>>> in the takeoff run than V1 or VR
>>>
>>>> The question the system needs to ask is "In the current 
>>>> configuration, with the measured acceleration [*], current airspeed, 
>>>> and current position on the current runway, can the aircraft reach 
>>>> the specified V1 at a point where it can continue the takeoff or 
>>>> abort, and will it be able to rotate at the specified Vr.
>>>
>>> The problem with that approach is that is far too late
>>> during the takeoff run to be doing that by measurement
>>> when its much too late for the pilots to be fixing what
>>> the problem is, particularly when the engines arent
>>> actually performing the way they were meant to when
>>> the prefight calculations were done
>>
>> There would be no expectation that the pilots would fix it. The idea 
>> is to abort the takeoff while that can still be done safely.
> 
> I assume that you are talking about some sort of automated system to 
> alert pilots of a configuration error?
> If so wouldn't that rely on data input by the pilots prior to takeoff so 
> the system would be only as good as the data therefore it doesn't 
> completely eliminate the chances of an error?
> In this incident did the pilots self report?
> If they didn't why would the ATSB investigate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
I sent a reply to this, but I'm not seeing it. If you can't see it 
either, I'll post it again.

Sylvia.

Thread

Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-21 13:28 +0800
  Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 04:21 +1100
    Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-23 12:50 +0800
      Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 20:09 +1100
        Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-24 14:14 +0800
          Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-24 19:21 +1100
            Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-24 21:59 +0800
              Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-25 03:46 +1100
              Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-25 09:19 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 13:17 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-25 19:34 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 16:44 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-25 22:36 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 22:12 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-26 09:36 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 10:07 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 02:21 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-26 16:29 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 20:14 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-27 12:17 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-27 19:52 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-27 16:56 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-28 04:33 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-28 11:52 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-28 15:57 +1100

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