Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration.

From	"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	aus.aviation
Subject	Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration.
Date	2025-01-25 19:34 +1100
Message-ID	<op.20w8r9rcbyq249@pvr2.lan> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <lvgpdlF3t5nU2@mid.individual.net> <op.20vdh9dzbyq249@pvr2.lan> <lvhkmqF8lmsU1@mid.individual.net> <lvihukFd5foU1@mid.individual.net> <lvjafdFgsnkU1@mid.individual.net>

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On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 16:17:01 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>  
wrote:

> On 25-Jan-25 6:19 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 25/1/2025 12:59 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 24-Jan-25 4:21 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2025/  
>>>>>>>>> report/ao-2024-038
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's time all public transport aircraft had takeoff
>>>>>>>>> performance  monitoring, no matter the size.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> That isnt going to result in the problem  being
>>>>>>>> fixed quickly enough  to  stop an accident
>>>>
>>>>>>> Well before an abort becomes risky, the system has enough  
>>>>>>> informationto  determine whether the crew calculated v1 and vr are  
>>>>>>> correct,
>>>>
>>>>>> Bullshit with that incorrect flaps setting.
>>>>
>>>>>>> and whether  the aircraft will be able  toboth continue a takeoff,  
>>>>>>> and stop, at v1.
>>>>
>>>>>> Bullshit with that incorrect flaps setting, let alone
>>>>>> tell the pilots that the flaps setting is wrong.
>>>>
>>>>>>  It would make much more sense to compare the
>>>>>> actual settings with that has been entered at the
>>>>>> preflight config calculations and tell the pilots
>>>>>> that they have not set what was required with
>>>>>> flaps and boost etc before they actually applied
>>>>>> takeoff power and not allow takeoff power to be
>>>>>> applied before those were set correctly.
>>>>
>>>>>>> It can issue an abort alert if not.
>>>>
>>>>>>  See above
>>>>
>>>>>>> This covers at least miscalculated v1, miscalculated vr, wrong  
>>>>>>> thrust settings, wrong flap settings, starting from the wrong  
>>>>>>> intersection, takeoff from the wrong runway, and no doubt others  
>>>>>>> that I haven't even thought of.
>>>>
>>>>>> It would be stupid to try to measure that while taking off
>>>>>> instead of doing that before takeoff power is applied
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, there is also a different problem with the engines
>>>>>> not being able to deliver the power they were assumed
>>>>>> to be able to deliver the power they were supposed to
>>>>>> be able to deliver in the preflight calculations, but that
>>>>>> was not the case in the incident being discussed and
>>>>>> it would be much easier to discover than much earlier
>>>>>> in the takeoff run than V1 or VR
>>>>
>>>>> The question the system needs to ask is "In the current  
>>>>> configuration, with the measured acceleration [*], current airspeed,  
>>>>> and current position on the current runway, can the aircraft reach  
>>>>> the specified V1 at a point where it can continue the takeoff or  
>>>>> abort, and will it be able to rotate at the specified Vr.
>>>>
>>>> The problem with that approach is that is far too late
>>>> during the takeoff run to be doing that by measurement
>>>> when its much too late for the pilots to be fixing what
>>>> the problem is, particularly when the engines arent
>>>> actually performing the way they were meant to when
>>>> the prefight calculations were done
>>>
>>> There would be no expectation that the pilots would fix it. The idea  
>>> is to abort the takeoff while that can still be done safely.
>>  I assume that you are talking about some sort of automated system to  
>> alert pilots of a configuration error?
>> If so wouldn't that rely on data input by the pilots prior to takeoff  
>> so the system would be only as good as the data therefore it doesn't  
>> completely eliminate the chances of an error?
>> In this incident did the pilots self report?
>> If they didn't why would the ATSB investigate?

> I sent a reply to this, but I'm not seeing it. If you can't see it  
> either, I'll post it again.

Definitely some glitch, please try sending again

Thread

Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-21 13:28 +0800
  Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 04:21 +1100
    Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-23 12:50 +0800
      Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 20:09 +1100
        Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-24 14:14 +0800
          Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-24 19:21 +1100
            Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-24 21:59 +0800
              Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-25 03:46 +1100
              Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-25 09:19 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 13:17 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-25 19:34 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 16:44 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-25 22:36 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 22:12 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-26 09:36 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 10:07 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 02:21 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-26 16:29 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 20:14 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-27 12:17 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-27 19:52 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-27 16:56 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-28 04:33 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-28 11:52 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-28 15:57 +1100

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