Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration.

From	Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au>
Newsgroups	aus.aviation
Subject	Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration.
Date	2025-01-25 09:19 +1100
Message-ID	<lvihukFd5foU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <lve051Fl5i1U1@mid.individual.net> <op.20tk2vlxbyq249@pvr2.lan> <lvgpdlF3t5nU2@mid.individual.net> <op.20vdh9dzbyq249@pvr2.lan> <lvhkmqF8lmsU1@mid.individual.net>

Show all headers | View raw

On 25/1/2025 12:59 am, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 24-Jan-25 4:21 pm, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote
>>
>>>>>>> https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2025/ 
>>>>>>> report/ao-2024-038
>>
>>>>>>> It's time all public transport aircraft had takeoff
>>>>>>> performance  monitoring, no matter the size.
>>
>>>>>> That isnt going to result in the problem  being
>>>>>> fixed quickly enough  to  stop an accident
>>
>>>>> Well before an abort becomes risky, the system has enough 
>>>>> informationto  determine whether the crew calculated v1 and vr are 
>>>>> correct,
>>
>>>> Bullshit with that incorrect flaps setting.
>>
>>>>> and whether  the aircraft will be able  toboth continue a takeoff, 
>>>>> and stop, at v1.
>>
>>>> Bullshit with that incorrect flaps setting, let alone
>>>> tell the pilots that the flaps setting is wrong.
>>
>>>>  It would make much more sense to compare the
>>>> actual settings with that has been entered at the
>>>> preflight config calculations and tell the pilots
>>>> that they have not set what was required with
>>>> flaps and boost etc before they actually applied
>>>> takeoff power and not allow takeoff power to be
>>>> applied before those were set correctly.
>>
>>>>> It can issue an abort alert if not.
>>
>>>>  See above
>>
>>>>> This covers at least miscalculated v1, miscalculated vr, wrong 
>>>>> thrust settings, wrong flap settings, starting from the wrong 
>>>>> intersection, takeoff from the wrong runway, and no doubt others 
>>>>> that I haven't even thought of.
>>
>>>> It would be stupid to try to measure that while taking off
>>>> instead of doing that before takeoff power is applied
>>
>>>> Yes, there is also a different problem with the engines
>>>> not being able to deliver the power they were assumed
>>>> to be able to deliver the power they were supposed to
>>>> be able to deliver in the preflight calculations, but that
>>>> was not the case in the incident being discussed and
>>>> it would be much easier to discover than much earlier
>>>> in the takeoff run than V1 or VR
>>
>>> The question the system needs to ask is "In the current 
>>> configuration, with the measured acceleration [*], current airspeed, 
>>> and current position on the current runway, can the aircraft reach 
>>> the specified V1 at a point where it can continue the takeoff or 
>>> abort, and will it be able to rotate at the specified Vr.
>>
>> The problem with that approach is that is far too late
>> during the takeoff run to be doing that by measurement
>> when its much too late for the pilots to be fixing what
>> the problem is, particularly when the engines arent
>> actually performing the way they were meant to when
>> the prefight calculations were done
> 
> There would be no expectation that the pilots would fix it. The idea is 
> to abort the takeoff while that can still be done safely.

I assume that you are talking about some sort of automated system to 
alert pilots of a configuration error?
If so wouldn't that rely on data input by the pilots prior to takeoff so 
the system would be only as good as the data therefore it doesn't 
completely eliminate the chances of an error?
In this incident did the pilots self report?
If they didn't why would the ATSB investigate?




-- 
Daryl

Thread

Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-21 13:28 +0800
  Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 04:21 +1100
    Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-23 12:50 +0800
      Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-23 20:09 +1100
        Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-24 14:14 +0800
          Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-24 19:21 +1100
            Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-24 21:59 +0800
              Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-25 03:46 +1100
              Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-25 09:19 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 13:17 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-25 19:34 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 16:44 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-25 22:36 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-25 22:12 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Daryl <dwalford@westpine.com.au> - 2025-01-26 09:36 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 10:07 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 02:21 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-26 16:29 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-26 20:14 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-27 12:17 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-27 19:52 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-27 16:56 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-28 04:33 +1100
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-01-28 11:52 +0800
                Re: Dash-8 incorrect takeoff configuration. "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2025-01-28 15:57 +1100

csiph-web