Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
| From | Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math, comp.ai.philosophy |
| Subject | Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz |
| Date | 2025-10-23 23:55 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <20251023165017.944@kylheku.com> (permalink) |
| References | (23 earlier) <10dbhc6$tibf$1@dont-email.me> <20251022155918.251@kylheku.com> <10de907$26gqk$1@dont-email.me> <10deat2$272lc$1@dont-email.me> <10debce$277k1$1@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 4 groups.
On 2025-10-23, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/23/2025 5:40 PM, dbush wrote: >> On 10/23/2025 6:08 PM, olcott wrote: >>> On 10/22/2025 6:01 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote: >>>> On 2025-10-22, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On 10/22/2025 3:20 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote: >>>>>> On 2025-10-22, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> On 10/22/2025 2:52 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2025-10-22, André G Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2025-10-22 12:40, Kaz Kylheku wrote: >>>>>>>>>> But that entire bundle is one fixed case DD, with a single >>>>>>>>>> behavior, >>>>>>>>>> which is a property of DD, which is a finite string. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think part of the problem here is that Olcott doesn't grasp >>>>>>>>> that the >>>>>>>>> "finite string input" DD *must* include as a substring the entire >>>>>>>>> description of HHH. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Furthermore, he doesn't get that it doesn't literally have to be >>>>>>>> HHH, >>>>>>>> but the same algorithm: a workalike. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The HHH analyzing DD's halting could be in C, while the HHH >>>>>>>> called by DD could be in Python. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DD does call HHH(DD) in recursive simulation >>>>>>> and you try to get away with lying about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm saying that's not a requirement in the halting problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> DD does not have to use that implementation of HHH; it can have >>>>>> its own clean-room implementation and it can be in any language. >>>>>> >>>>>> But nonetheless, yes, there will still be a nested simulation tower. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I made sure to read what you said all the way through >>>>> this time. DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly >>>>> reach its own final halt state no matter what HHH does. >>>> >>>> The /simulation/ of DD by HHH will not /reproduce/ the halt >>>> state of DD, which DD undeniably /has/. >>>> >>> >>> The finite string as an actual input to HHH(DD) >> >> i.e. finite string DD which is the description of machine DD and >> therefore is stipulated to specify all semantic properties of the >> described machine, including halting when executed directly. >> >>> *does not have the halting property* >> >> False, see above.> >>> Turing machine deciders only compute the mapping >>> from their finite string inputs >> >> And the finite string input DD has the halting property as show above. >> >>> >>> Turing machine deciders only compute the mapping >>> from their finite string inputs >>> >>> Turing machine deciders only compute the mapping >>> from their finite string inputs >>> >>> The DD that has the halting property >> >> i.e. finite string DD which is an input to HH >> >>> is not an input >> False, see above. > > Correct simulation is defined as simulation > according to the semantics of the specification > language: C, x86 or TM description. Correct simulation must continue while the final instruction has not been reached. The correct simulation of a non-terminating machine never stops. The correct simulation of a terminating machine must reach its halt state. > The execution trace of DD correctly simulated > by HHH differs from the execution trace of > DD correctly simulated HHH1 proving that I > am right and you are stupid or dishonest. Someone idenfiable as an engineer, and not necessarily even a great one, will immediately know that if two simulations (of a deterministic program that has a single behavior) do not agree, /at most/ one of them can be called "correct". They could be both wrong, but they cannot be both right. If you think so, then obviously you must be stupid or dishonest. -- TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
Back to sci.math | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:00 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:05 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:13 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:16 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:25 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:29 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:20 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:29 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 06:56 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 08:25 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:48 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:00 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 08:47 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:50 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:25 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:27 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:30 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 15:40 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 10:47 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 17:07 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 12:11 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:38 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 18:40 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-10-22 13:24 -0600
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:30 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:31 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-22 20:34 +0100
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 19:52 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:00 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 20:20 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:35 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:43 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:12 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:32 -0700
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 17:50 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 23:01 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 09:55 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 16:47 +0000
"there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:22 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:50 -0700
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 21:11 +0000
"there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 17:08 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 15:21 -0700
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 15:26 -0700
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 18:40 -0400
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 17:48 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 19:09 -0400
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 23:55 +0000
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 19:00 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 23:45 +0000
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 18:51 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 20:14 -0400
"there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 17:14 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 18:33 -0400
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 23:15 +0000
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 18:24 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 20:14 -0400
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 01:22 +0000
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 20:47 -0500
Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 22:13 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-10-23 08:02 +0200
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 09:51 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:55 -0500
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:24 -0400
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 21:55 +0000
Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:36 -0400
csiph-web