Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz

From	Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com>
Newsgroups	comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math, comp.ai.philosophy
Subject	Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz
Date	2025-10-22 23:15 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<20251022161242.398@kylheku.com> (permalink)
References	(19 earlier) <10dbb0g$rpuu$1@dont-email.me> <20251022125116.739@kylheku.com> <10dbd5g$sbbj$3@dont-email.me> <20251022131901.397@kylheku.com> <10dbkvh$uiit$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 2025-10-22, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/22/2025 3:20 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2025-10-22, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/22/2025 2:52 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-10-22, André G  Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-10-22 12:40, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>> But that entire bundle is one fixed case DD, with a single behavior,
>>>>>> which is a property of DD, which is a finite string.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think part of the problem here is that Olcott doesn't grasp that the
>>>>> "finite string input" DD *must* include as a substring the entire
>>>>> description of HHH.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, he doesn't get that it doesn't literally have to be HHH,
>>>> but the same algorithm: a workalike.
>>>>
>>>> The HHH analyzing DD's halting could be in C, while the HHH
>>>> called by DD could be in Python.
>>>
>>> DD does call HHH(DD) in recursive simulation
>>> and you try to get away with lying about it.
>> 
>> I'm saying that's not a requirement in the halting problem.
>> 
>> DD does not have to use that implementation of HHH; it can have
>> its own clean-room implementation and it can be in any language.
>> 
>> But nonetheless, yes, there will still be a nested simulation tower.
>> 
>
> Thus proving that DD correctly simulated by HHH
> cannot possibly reach its own simulated final halt
> state no matter what HHH does.

I explained that a nested simulation tower is two dimensional.

One dimension is the simulation level, the nesting itself;
that goes out to infinity. Due to the aborting behavior of HHH,
it is not actually realized in simulation; we have to step
through the aborted simulations to keep it going.

The other dimension is the execution /within/ the simulations.
That can be halting or non-halting.

In the HHH(DD) simulation tower, though that is infinite,
the simulations are halting.

I said that before. Your memory of that has vaporized, and you have now
focused only on my statement that the simluation tower is infinite.

The depth of the simulation tower, and the halting of the simulations
within that tower, are independent phenomena.

A decider must not mistake one for the other.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

Thread

Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:00 -0500
  Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:05 -0400
    Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:13 -0500
      Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:16 -0400
        Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:25 -0500
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:29 -0400
  Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:20 +0000
    Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:29 -0500
    Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 06:56 -0500
      Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 08:25 -0400
        Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:48 -0500
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:00 -0400
            Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 08:47 -0500
              Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:50 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:25 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:27 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:30 -0400
      Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 15:40 +0000
        Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 10:47 -0500
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 17:07 +0000
            Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 12:11 -0500
              Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:38 -0400
              Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 18:40 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-10-22 13:24 -0600
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:30 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:31 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-22 20:34 +0100
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 19:52 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:00 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 20:20 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:35 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:43 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:12 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:32 -0700
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 17:50 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 23:01 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 09:55 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 16:47 +0000
                "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:22 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:50 -0700
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 21:11 +0000
                "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 17:08 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 15:21 -0700
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 15:26 -0700
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 18:40 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 17:48 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 19:09 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 23:55 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 19:00 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 23:45 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 18:51 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 20:14 -0400
                "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 17:14 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 18:33 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 23:15 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 18:24 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 20:14 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 01:22 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 20:47 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 22:13 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-10-23 08:02 +0200
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 09:51 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:55 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:24 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 21:55 +0000
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:36 -0400

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