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Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz

From Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math, comp.ai.philosophy
Subject Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz
Date 2025-10-23 21:11 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20251023135124.92@kylheku.com> (permalink)
References (23 earlier) <10dbhc6$tibf$1@dont-email.me> <20251022155918.251@kylheku.com> <10ddfl3$1qu47$1@dont-email.me> <20251023093909.930@kylheku.com> <10ddo7r$1v6re$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 2025-10-23, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/23/2025 11:47 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2025-10-23, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/22/2025 6:01 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-10-22, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/22/2025 3:20 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-10-22, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/22/2025 2:52 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-10-22, André G  Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2025-10-22 12:40, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> But that entire bundle is one fixed case DD, with a single behavior,
>>>>>>>>>> which is a property of DD, which is a finite string.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think part of the problem here is that Olcott doesn't grasp that the
>>>>>>>>> "finite string input" DD *must* include as a substring the entire
>>>>>>>>> description of HHH.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Furthermore, he doesn't get that it doesn't literally have to be HHH,
>>>>>>>> but the same algorithm: a workalike.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The HHH analyzing DD's halting could be in C, while the HHH
>>>>>>>> called by DD could be in Python.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DD does call HHH(DD) in recursive simulation
>>>>>>> and you try to get away with lying about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm saying that's not a requirement in the halting problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DD does not have to use that implementation of HHH; it can have
>>>>>> its own clean-room implementation and it can be in any language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But nonetheless, yes, there will still be a nested simulation tower.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I made sure to read what you said all the way through
>>>>> this time. DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly
>>>>> reach its own final halt state no matter what HHH does.
>>>>
>>>> The /simulation/ of DD by HHH will not /reproduce/ the halt
>>>> state of DD, which DD undeniably /has/.
>>>>
>>> *Hence the halting problem is wrong*
>> 
>> The much simpler explanation is that the decider is wrong. 
>
> https://www.liarparadox.org/Simple_but_Wrong.png

As a general remark, liardparadox.org is a site under your own control
and so sheds no light on anything; it just repeats the claims you make
in comp.theory.

I have thoroughly refuted the lazy, intellectually immature and illogical
idea that the halting problem involves anything equivalent to the
liar paradox.

Turing machines do not proclaim a statement, and do not self-contradict.

Even among sentences which appear to state a truth, and which are
self-referential, not all such sentences are ill-formed paradoxes.

"This sentence has five words." is self-referential and truth bearing;
its value is true.

Your repeated claim that halting involves something closely analogous
to the Liar Paradox is completely unfounded, not supported by a shred
of rational evidence.

>>> The halting problem requires that halt deciders do what
>>> no Turing machine decider can do report on the semantic
>>> property of non-inputs.
>> 
>> It positively doesn't. 
>
> HHH(DD) does report on the behavior that its actual
> input actually specifies:

Yes; it does, as required.

That input has one and only one behavior, which is halting.

Thus, the 0 report is incorrect.

It meets the requirements for what to report on,
but not the requirement for correctness.

> On 10/22/2025 3:20 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> > there will still be a nested simulation tower
>
> The halting problem requires HHH(DD) to report on
> something else, QED the halting problem is wrong.

It does not; it requires HHH(DD) to report on the actual behavior of
input DD.

That input DD starts its own instance of an algorithm equivalent to the
one used by HHH, and applies that to itself. Then it behaves in a way
which ensures that the result does not match its behavior.

That whole thing encoded in the finite string input, and is its
behavior. 

> Turing machine deciders only compute the mapping
> from their finite string inputs to an accept state
> or reject state on the basis that this input finite
> string specifies a semantic or syntactic property.

The DD input definitely specifies these properties. It it well-formed
code that can be executed, and that reaches termination.

> This means that the ultimate measure of the behavior
> that a finite string input D specifies is D correctly
> simulated by simulating halt decider H.

For that, a simulator is needed which doesn't abort, because
correctly implies completely. We have been calling one such
decider by the name HHH1. HHH1 does nothing but simulate.

HHH1(DD) finds that DD terminates and returns 1.

Thus it carries out the "ultimate measure".

HHH fails to simulate DD to the end the way HHH1 does and therefore
does not perform the "ultimate measure".

> The halting problem requires that halt deciders do what
> no Turing machine decider can do report on the semantic
> property of non-inputs.

It simply doesn't. This claim is not based in reality, and is delivered
without rational justification.

The halting problem is simply the question, can there exist an algorithm
for deciding (i.e. calculating in a finite number of steps) the halting
status of /any/ algorithm?

Through meticulous logic, we have derived the answer that no, an
algorithm which decides the halting of all algorithms, does not exist.

In no way does the halting problem require "non-inputs", whatever those
are.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

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Thread

Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:00 -0500
  Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:05 -0400
    Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:13 -0500
      Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:16 -0400
        Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:25 -0500
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:29 -0400
  Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:20 +0000
    Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:29 -0500
    Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 06:56 -0500
      Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 08:25 -0400
        Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:48 -0500
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:00 -0400
            Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 08:47 -0500
              Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:50 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 09:25 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:27 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:30 -0400
      Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 15:40 +0000
        Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 10:47 -0500
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 17:07 +0000
            Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 12:11 -0500
              Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:38 -0400
              Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 18:40 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-10-22 13:24 -0600
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:30 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:31 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-22 20:34 +0100
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 19:52 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:00 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 20:20 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 15:35 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:43 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:12 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:32 -0700
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 17:50 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 23:01 +0000
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 09:55 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 --- NST Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 16:47 +0000
                "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:22 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:50 -0700
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 21:11 +0000
                "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 17:08 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 15:21 -0700
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 15:26 -0700
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 18:40 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 17:48 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 19:09 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 23:55 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 19:00 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 23:45 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 18:51 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 20:14 -0400
                "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 17:14 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 18:33 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 23:15 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 18:24 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 20:14 -0400
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-23 01:22 +0000
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 20:47 -0500
                Re: "there will still be a nested simulation tower" Kaz dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 22:13 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-10-23 08:02 +0200
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 09:51 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 14:55 -0500
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 16:24 -0400
                Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-22 21:55 +0000
          Re: Never any actual rebuttal to HHH(DD)==0 Since 10/13/2022 dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 13:36 -0400

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