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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #445458 > unrolled thread
| Started by | bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-01-31 08:16 -0800 |
| Last post | 2017-02-06 03:24 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 60 — 16 participants |
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H-1B Reform bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-01-31 08:16 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-01-31 09:15 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Martin Riddle <martin_rid@verizon.net> - 2017-01-31 20:11 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-01-31 22:49 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform dakupoto@gmail.com - 2017-02-04 22:52 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-05 07:23 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-05 18:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:27 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-06 20:26 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 07:49 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 12:18 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 10:02 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 20:21 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:08 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:28 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 10:05 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:13 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:16 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:13 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:19 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-08 13:42 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 12:06 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 03:18 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:17 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 07:51 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform makolber@yahoo.com - 2017-02-06 10:08 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:11 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 12:53 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:22 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:36 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-08 17:20 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:14 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 19:36 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-07 08:02 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-07 17:01 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 20:33 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 08:18 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-08 14:36 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 21:12 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 07:42 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-02-09 11:02 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 10:36 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 14:34 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:27 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-02-09 15:33 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-09 12:40 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:58 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 17:10 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-06 09:24 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 18:05 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 10:18 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 20:41 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 13:31 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-06 22:05 +0000
Re: H-1B Reform Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-02-06 14:56 -0800
Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 10:32 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2017-02-05 19:15 +0100
Re: H-1B Reform mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2017-02-05 23:06 -0500
Re: H-1B Reform bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 03:24 -0800
Page 1 of 3 [1] 2 3 Next page →
| From | bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-31 08:16 -0800 |
| Subject | H-1B Reform |
| Message-ID | <8c2e13af-66be-4681-9e6e-f35419b90258@googlegroups.com> |
This is going to fly like a lead balloon: http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f
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| From | George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-31 09:15 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <258ef8bb-97c9-4b0b-a1cb-2d61600a2973@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #445458 |
On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 11:16:31 AM UTC-5, bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote: > This is going to fly like a lead balloon: > > http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f Jeesh that's terrible journalism. It's a bill in congress (There are tons of silly bills.) and the picture is of Trump signing something. Gives me the wrong impression. George H.
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| From | Martin Riddle <martin_rid@verizon.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-31 20:11 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <edd29chuiqini1476qulcfc7notq615d3r@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #445458 |
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > >This is going to fly like a lead balloon: > >http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? Cheers
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| From | Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-01-31 22:49 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <olm29cprgj391v1elusig6d6kuqdu9marh@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #445535 |
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 20:11:58 -0500, the renowned Martin Riddle <martin_rid@verizon.net> wrote: >On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), >bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > >> >>This is going to fly like a lead balloon: >> >>http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f > >So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? > >Cheers There are always unintended consequences when governments meddle. --sp -- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
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| From | dakupoto@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-04 22:52 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <67695248-fea5-41ee-9ff9-155211f69235@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #445535 |
On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), > bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: > > > > >This is going to fly like a lead balloon: > > > >http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f > > So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? > > Cheers That is very well said. And now more and more US high tech companies will try to outsource as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore sites.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-05 07:23 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <efoubhFqrcqU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446256 |
On 2017-02-04 22:52, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle wrote: >> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), >> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> >>> This is going to fly like a lead balloon: >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f >> >> So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? >> Huh? How can a single engineer do the work of two on a consistent basis? The day has only 24h. >> Cheers > > That is very well said. And now more and more > US high tech companies will try to outsource > as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore > sites. > They'll do that anyhow and that's got nothing to do with H1B. Running a software outfit overseas is cheaper than paying for travel and housing of someone temporarily moved over here. The pay will also be much lower because the cost of daily life is much lower in many countries overseas. Also, there can't be import tariffs on it because their work results will flow across the borders on "singing wires". Raising and most of all enforcing the required wage is the perfect way to fix H1B and I've always said that. Finally we have an administration that understand it. H1B is meant to haul in talent where we truly can't find an engineer for, not to obtain work results cheaper. The companies I worked for used H1B for exactly that intended purpose and they paid beaucoup bucks for those folks in salary. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-05 18:02 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <0fbf9chcqjmofpabcrb4i97qjvg0fecj65@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #446276 |
On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:23:45 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-04 22:52, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: >> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle wrote: >>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), >>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> This is going to fly like a lead balloon: >>>> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f >>> >>> So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? >>> > >Huh? How can a single engineer do the work of two on a consistent basis? >The day has only 24h. > > >>> Cheers >> >> That is very well said. And now more and more >> US high tech companies will try to outsource >> as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore >> sites. >> > >They'll do that anyhow and that's got nothing to do with H1B. Running a >software outfit overseas is cheaper than paying for travel and housing >of someone temporarily moved over here. The pay will also be much lower >because the cost of daily life is much lower in many countries overseas. >Also, there can't be import tariffs on it because their work results >will flow across the borders on "singing wires". It may seem so but it's not true. We have hundreds of H1B software engineers, mostly here in the US but, sure, some in India. Having them here is more efficient than "out of sight - out of mind". > >Raising and most of all enforcing the required wage is the perfect way >to fix H1B and I've always said that. Finally we have an administration >that understand it. H1B is meant to haul in talent where we truly can't >find an engineer for, not to obtain work results cheaper. The companies >I worked for used H1B for exactly that intended purpose and they paid >beaucoup bucks for those folks in salary. It's not all about wages. It really is impossible to find hundreds of contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs).
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-06 07:27 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <efriv2FcjniU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446346 |
On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:23:45 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-04 22:52, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle wrote: >>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), >>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is going to fly like a lead balloon: >>>>> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f >>>> >>>> So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? >>>> >> >> Huh? How can a single engineer do the work of two on a consistent basis? >> The day has only 24h. >> >> >>>> Cheers >>> >>> That is very well said. And now more and more >>> US high tech companies will try to outsource >>> as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore >>> sites. >>> >> >> They'll do that anyhow and that's got nothing to do with H1B. Running a >> software outfit overseas is cheaper than paying for travel and housing >> of someone temporarily moved over here. The pay will also be much lower >> because the cost of daily life is much lower in many countries overseas. >> Also, there can't be import tariffs on it because their work results >> will flow across the borders on "singing wires". > > It may seem so but it's not true. We have hundreds of H1B software > engineers, mostly here in the US but, sure, some in India. Having > them here is more efficient than "out of sight - out of mind". You would need good team leaders in India but yes, for many projects that doesn't work well or results in more problems than if they were local. If managed right a remote relationship can work very well. 100% of my client relationships are now remote. Zoom and GoToMeeting make this very efficient. >> >> Raising and most of all enforcing the required wage is the perfect way >> to fix H1B and I've always said that. Finally we have an administration >> that understand it. H1B is meant to haul in talent where we truly can't >> find an engineer for, not to obtain work results cheaper. The companies >> I worked for used H1B for exactly that intended purpose and they paid >> beaucoup bucks for those folks in salary. > > It's not all about wages. It is. > ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of > contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in > workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of > contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). > It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff that previous ones didn't. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-06 20:26 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <078i9chma6er7dlh3tf0dk02qq0k0qjukh@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #446419 |
On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:23:45 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-02-04 22:52, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), >>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is going to fly like a lead balloon: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f >>>>> >>>>> So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? >>>>> >>> >>> Huh? How can a single engineer do the work of two on a consistent basis? >>> The day has only 24h. >>> >>> >>>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> That is very well said. And now more and more >>>> US high tech companies will try to outsource >>>> as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore >>>> sites. >>>> >>> >>> They'll do that anyhow and that's got nothing to do with H1B. Running a >>> software outfit overseas is cheaper than paying for travel and housing >>> of someone temporarily moved over here. The pay will also be much lower >>> because the cost of daily life is much lower in many countries overseas. >>> Also, there can't be import tariffs on it because their work results >>> will flow across the borders on "singing wires". >> >> It may seem so but it's not true. We have hundreds of H1B software >> engineers, mostly here in the US but, sure, some in India. Having >> them here is more efficient than "out of sight - out of mind". > > >You would need good team leaders in India but yes, for many projects >that doesn't work well or results in more problems than if they were local. > >If managed right a remote relationship can work very well. 100% of my >client relationships are now remote. Zoom and GoToMeeting make this very >efficient. You forgot to say "YMMV". We do both but some jobs just can't be done overseas. > >>> >>> Raising and most of all enforcing the required wage is the perfect way >>> to fix H1B and I've always said that. Finally we have an administration >>> that understand it. H1B is meant to haul in talent where we truly can't >>> find an engineer for, not to obtain work results cheaper. The companies >>> I worked for used H1B for exactly that intended purpose and they paid >>> beaucoup bucks for those folks in salary. >> >> It's not all about wages. > > >It is. Of course it's not. Wages aren't the only cost of doing business. > > >> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >> > >It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >that previous ones didn't. The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code jockeys.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-07 07:49 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <efu8itFt9ngU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446556 |
On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:23:45 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-04 22:52, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), >>>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is going to fly like a lead balloon: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f >>>>>> >>>>>> So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? >>>>>> >>>> >>>> Huh? How can a single engineer do the work of two on a consistent basis? >>>> The day has only 24h. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> That is very well said. And now more and more >>>>> US high tech companies will try to outsource >>>>> as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore >>>>> sites. >>>>> >>>> >>>> They'll do that anyhow and that's got nothing to do with H1B. Running a >>>> software outfit overseas is cheaper than paying for travel and housing >>>> of someone temporarily moved over here. The pay will also be much lower >>>> because the cost of daily life is much lower in many countries overseas. >>>> Also, there can't be import tariffs on it because their work results >>>> will flow across the borders on "singing wires". >>> >>> It may seem so but it's not true. We have hundreds of H1B software >>> engineers, mostly here in the US but, sure, some in India. Having >>> them here is more efficient than "out of sight - out of mind". >> >> >> You would need good team leaders in India but yes, for many projects >> that doesn't work well or results in more problems than if they were local. >> >> If managed right a remote relationship can work very well. 100% of my >> client relationships are now remote. Zoom and GoToMeeting make this very >> efficient. > > You forgot to say "YMMV". We do both but some jobs just can't be done > overseas. Same here, there are always exceptions. This is why I had to find a local SW-engineer for one project. Pressure testing is hard to do via Internet. It also can't be shipped out because things can go seriously kablouie. >> >>>> >>>> Raising and most of all enforcing the required wage is the perfect way >>>> to fix H1B and I've always said that. Finally we have an administration >>>> that understand it. H1B is meant to haul in talent where we truly can't >>>> find an engineer for, not to obtain work results cheaper. The companies >>>> I worked for used H1B for exactly that intended purpose and they paid >>>> beaucoup bucks for those folks in salary. >>> >>> It's not all about wages. >> >> >> It is. > > Of course it's not. Wages aren't the only cost of doing business. This has nothing to do with business, it has to do with work visa. Abuse of work visa rules can be completely stopped by enforcing the prevailing wage or some other wage limit. It is simple. The new administration seems to be the first one that understands this (and some other things). >> >>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>> >> >> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >> that previous ones didn't. > > The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they > don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code > jockeys. > Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or under-employed coders around. H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-07 12:18 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <gtvj9chj20b87cvcvtj70huc20lta7vkob@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #446645 |
On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:23:45 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2017-02-04 22:52, dakupoto@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-5, Martin Riddle wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 08:16:27 -0800 (PST), >>>>>>> bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is going to fly like a lead balloon: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/zg8k64f >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So instead of displacing 1 american worker, they'll displace 2? >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Huh? How can a single engineer do the work of two on a consistent basis? >>>>> The day has only 24h. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> >>>>>> That is very well said. And now more and more >>>>>> US high tech companies will try to outsource >>>>>> as many of their jobs as possible to off-shore >>>>>> sites. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> They'll do that anyhow and that's got nothing to do with H1B. Running a >>>>> software outfit overseas is cheaper than paying for travel and housing >>>>> of someone temporarily moved over here. The pay will also be much lower >>>>> because the cost of daily life is much lower in many countries overseas. >>>>> Also, there can't be import tariffs on it because their work results >>>>> will flow across the borders on "singing wires". >>>> >>>> It may seem so but it's not true. We have hundreds of H1B software >>>> engineers, mostly here in the US but, sure, some in India. Having >>>> them here is more efficient than "out of sight - out of mind". >>> >>> >>> You would need good team leaders in India but yes, for many projects >>> that doesn't work well or results in more problems than if they were local. >>> >>> If managed right a remote relationship can work very well. 100% of my >>> client relationships are now remote. Zoom and GoToMeeting make this very >>> efficient. >> >> You forgot to say "YMMV". We do both but some jobs just can't be done >> overseas. > > >Same here, there are always exceptions. This is why I had to find a >local SW-engineer for one project. Pressure testing is hard to do via >Internet. It also can't be shipped out because things can go seriously >kablouie. > >>> >>>>> >>>>> Raising and most of all enforcing the required wage is the perfect way >>>>> to fix H1B and I've always said that. Finally we have an administration >>>>> that understand it. H1B is meant to haul in talent where we truly can't >>>>> find an engineer for, not to obtain work results cheaper. The companies >>>>> I worked for used H1B for exactly that intended purpose and they paid >>>>> beaucoup bucks for those folks in salary. >>>> >>>> It's not all about wages. >>> >>> >>> It is. >> >> Of course it's not. Wages aren't the only cost of doing business. > > >This has nothing to do with business, it has to do with work visa. Abuse >of work visa rules can be completely stopped by enforcing the prevailing >wage or some other wage limit. It is simple. The new administration >seems to be the first one that understands this (and some other things). Use <> abuse There is no way we could hire the number of "short-term" people we need without the H1Bs. Regular employees are used as the architects and team leads (and to keep the corporate memory). Programming and jobs like verification are done mostly by H1Bs, under the direction of employees. It's a volitile market and the idea is to use contractors as short-term relief, keeping the employees over slumps, hopefully. Again, it's a "non-US multi-national". They could move all the jobs out if the government made it even more difficult (which governments are really good at doing). Democrats would love more unemployed. >>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>> >>> >>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>> that previous ones didn't. >> >> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >> jockeys. >> > >Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >under-employed coders around. No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is unfillable with resident labor.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-07 10:02 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <efugd1FempU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446654 |
On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: [...] >>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>> that previous ones didn't. >>> >>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>> jockeys. >>> >> >> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >> under-employed coders around. > > No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. > Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform these design tasks here and do something about it. >> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. > > "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is > unfillable with resident labor. > Why are they unfillable? For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-myth-of-americas-tech-talent-shortage/275319/ -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-07 20:21 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mesk9c5jnooc9edap9084pbnmusi0tfh6m@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #446660 |
On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: > >[...] > > >>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>> >>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>> jockeys. >>>> >>> >>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>> under-employed coders around. >> >> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >> > >Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >these design tasks here and do something about it. We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >> >> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >> unfillable with resident labor. >> > >Why are they unfillable? Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job with no chance of direct hire. > >For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. > >https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-myth-of-americas-tech-talent-shortage/275319/
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-08 08:08 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eg0u3sFfedbU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446715 |
On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> >> [...] >> >> >>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>> >>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>> jockeys. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>> under-employed coders around. >>> >>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>> >> >> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >> these design tasks here and do something about it. > > We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been > "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, do is level the playing field. > Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. > They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. >>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>> >>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>> unfillable with resident labor. >>> >> >> Why are they unfillable? > > Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job > with no chance of direct hire. I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way but many programmers do. >> >> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: > > But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and prefer freelancing just because of that. >> >> https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-myth-of-americas-tech-talent-shortage/275319/ -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-08 12:28 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <frkm9c1d297p5r0stvsk6frus1qfvo5cgh@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #446783 |
On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> >>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>> >>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>> >>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>> >>> >>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >> >> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? > > >Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >do is level the playing field. OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and eat it too. Got it. >> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >> > >They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). >>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>> >>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>> >>> >>> Why are they unfillable? >> >> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >> with no chance of direct hire. > > >I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of short-term contract work. BTDT. >For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >but many programmers do. They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to because they come to you. Different kettle. > >>> >>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >> >> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. > >There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >prefer freelancing just because of that. It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for an employer. Two, in fact.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-08 10:05 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eg14ugFgsgsU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446804 |
On 2017-02-08 09:28, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>>> >>>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >>> >>> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >>> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? >> >> >> Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >> been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >> lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >> another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >> do is level the playing field. > > OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to > import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if > they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. Huh? Where did I ever say that? > You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and > eat it too. Got it. > >>> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>> >> >> They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. > > They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the > customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. > That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). > Sure. That should always be made possible. It's got nothing to do with H1B, that is simply having a foreign design center. >>>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>>> >>>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Why are they unfillable? >>> >>> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >>> with no chance of direct hire. >> >> >> I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >> make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. > > But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of > short-term contract work. BTDT. > It is not. I do this for a living. So why am I not stuck in a cheap apartment? >> For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >> It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >> as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >> but many programmers do. > > They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to > because they come to you. Different kettle. It can be the same for programmers. They just have to become good enough so people either come to them or are willing to do it remotely. We live in a high-cost country and the only way to keep a decent job, temporary or not, is by becoming good enough at what one is doing. Example: The programmer for one of the projects I am involved in lives and works in his own home about 7000 miles from here. It works. Another works from his home about 3-4 miles from here and has mostly West Coast clients. Whenever we have to work together I usually go there by mountain bike. Even if we could get a certain task done remotely I sometimes rode (and did not bill my client for that travel time) because it's fun and healthy. >>>> >>>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >>> >>> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. >> >> There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >> prefer freelancing just because of that. > > It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for > an employer. Two, in fact. > If people feel like not marketing their skills themselves then they have to live with the middleman company. I never did and never will. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-08 13:13 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <qinm9cp2gp9cclbgl10rqltk0e1sqs2e5q@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #446817 |
On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-08 09:28, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>>>> >>>>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>>>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >>>> >>>> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >>>> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? >>> >>> >>> Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >>> been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >>> lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >>> another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >>> do is level the playing field. >> >> OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to >> import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if >> they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. > > >Huh? Where did I ever say that? You've been arguing for the elimination of the H1B. What other conclusion could one come to? > > >> You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and >> eat it too. Got it. >> >>>> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>>> >>> >>> They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. >> >> They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the >> customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. >> That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). >> > >Sure. That should always be made possible. It's got nothing to do with >H1B, that is simply having a foreign design center. Of course it does. H1Bs are a "necessary evil" for the business to exist here. >>>>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>>>> >>>>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why are they unfillable? >>>> >>>> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >>>> with no chance of direct hire. >>> >>> >>> I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >>> make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. >> >> But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of >> short-term contract work. BTDT. >> > >It is not. I do this for a living. So why am I not stuck in a cheap >apartment? You work from home. That's not going to be done with low-level programming or verification jobs. <sheesh> > >>> For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >>> It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >>> as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >>> but many programmers do. >> >> They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to >> because they come to you. Different kettle. > > >It can be the same for programmers. They just have to become good enough >so people either come to them or are willing to do it remotely. We live >in a high-cost country and the only way to keep a decent job, temporary >or not, is by becoming good enough at what one is doing. No, it can't. These are low-level coding and test jobs. You know, that sort of cruft you won't do? > >Example: The programmer for one of the projects I am involved in lives >and works in his own home about 7000 miles from here. It works. Another >works from his home about 3-4 miles from here and has mostly West Coast >clients. Whenever we have to work together I usually go there by >mountain bike. Even if we could get a certain task done remotely I >sometimes rode (and did not bill my client for that travel time) because >it's fun and healthy. We have a DSP engineer who lives in Montana, too. Completely different issue. You can't do that with a team of hundres of short-time transients. > >>>>> >>>>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>>>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>>>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >>>> >>>> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. >>> >>> There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >>> prefer freelancing just because of that. >> >> It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for >> an employer. Two, in fact. >> > >If people feel like not marketing their skills themselves then they have >to live with the middleman company. I never did and never will. Good grief. The job has to be done. We can't just waive a stick and make a low-level coding job a high-level architect's job (though the US education system is trying).
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-08 12:16 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eg1ck8FigeeU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446819 |
On 2017-02-08 10:13, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-08 09:28, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>>>>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >>>>> >>>>> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >>>>> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? >>>> >>>> >>>> Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >>>> been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >>>> lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >>>> another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >>>> do is level the playing field. >>> >>> OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to >>> import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if >>> they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. >> >> >> Huh? Where did I ever say that? > > You've been arguing for the elimination of the H1B. Where did I ever say that? Please quote. > ... What other conclusion could one come to? That maybe you were wrong and I never said that. Because I didn't. >> >>> You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and >>> eat it too. Got it. >>> >>>>> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. >>> >>> They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the >>> customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. >>> That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). >>> >> >> Sure. That should always be made possible. It's got nothing to do with >> H1B, that is simply having a foreign design center. > > Of course it does. H1Bs are a "necessary evil" for the business to > exist here. > If the only way to get their designs done he is the inclusion of H1B specialists they should not have a problem paying the required wages, should they? >>>>>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>>>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Why are they unfillable? >>>>> >>>>> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >>>>> with no chance of direct hire. >>>> >>>> >>>> I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >>>> make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. >>> >>> But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of >>> short-term contract work. BTDT. >>> >> >> It is not. I do this for a living. So why am I not stuck in a cheap >> apartment? > > You work from home. That's not going to be done with low-level > programming or verification jobs. <sheesh> Well, we got that done successfully, several times. Over one ocean plus some land. >> >>>> For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >>>> It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >>>> as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >>>> but many programmers do. >>> >>> They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to >>> because they come to you. Different kettle. >> >> >> It can be the same for programmers. They just have to become good enough >> so people either come to them or are willing to do it remotely. We live >> in a high-cost country and the only way to keep a decent job, temporary >> or not, is by becoming good enough at what one is doing. > > No, it can't. These are low-level coding and test jobs. You know, > that sort of cruft you won't do? > Sometimes it is necessary to come out there and do it locally. Nothing wrong with that, I've done that as well. Get a room at a hotel or some extended-stay accommodation. You can still have a home to come home to. You do not have to live your lief out of a suitcase. >> >> Example: The programmer for one of the projects I am involved in lives >> and works in his own home about 7000 miles from here. It works. Another >> works from his home about 3-4 miles from here and has mostly West Coast >> clients. Whenever we have to work together I usually go there by >> mountain bike. Even if we could get a certain task done remotely I >> sometimes rode (and did not bill my client for that travel time) because >> it's fun and healthy. > > We have a DSP engineer who lives in Montana, too. Completely > different issue. You can't do that with a team of hundres of > short-time transients. I don't know your product but we have done exactly that with complicated medical equipment design. In one rather extreme case there were half a dozen local engineers and a dozen external ones. It ended up completely blowing a competitor out of the water. >>>>>> >>>>>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>>>>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>>>>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >>>>> >>>>> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. >>>> >>>> There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >>>> prefer freelancing just because of that. >>> >>> It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for >>> an employer. Two, in fact. >>> >> >> If people feel like not marketing their skills themselves then they have >> to live with the middleman company. I never did and never will. > > Good grief. The job has to be done. We can't just waive a stick and > make a low-level coding job a high-level architect's job (though the > US education system is trying). > Then just "rent" the coders. There are plenty of US-based ones and if needed they come out there. If it has to be H1B pay them accordingly and all is good. What I am squarely against is abusing H1B to obtain cheap indentured labor. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-08 20:13 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <k4gn9cp4rmaj5v90it1hbumakjmmd5quov@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #446847 |
On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 12:16:32 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote: >On 2017-02-08 10:13, krw@notreal.com wrote: >> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 2017-02-08 09:28, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>>>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>>>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>>>>>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >>>>>> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >>>>> been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >>>>> lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >>>>> another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >>>>> do is level the playing field. >>>> >>>> OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to >>>> import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if >>>> they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. >>> >>> >>> Huh? Where did I ever say that? >> >> You've been arguing for the elimination of the H1B. > > >Where did I ever say that? Please quote. You want double the "minimum wage". That's the same damned thing. > > >> ... What other conclusion could one come to? > > >That maybe you were wrong and I never said that. Because I didn't. You did. > >>> >>>> You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and >>>> eat it too. Got it. >>>> >>>>>> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. >>>> >>>> They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the >>>> customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. >>>> That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). >>>> >>> >>> Sure. That should always be made possible. It's got nothing to do with >>> H1B, that is simply having a foreign design center. >> >> Of course it does. H1Bs are a "necessary evil" for the business to >> exist here. >> > >If the only way to get their designs done he is the inclusion of H1B >specialists they should not have a problem paying the required wages, >should they? [F . . | . . | . ./] Logic Content > > >>>>>>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>>>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>>>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>>>>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why are they unfillable? >>>>>> >>>>>> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >>>>>> with no chance of direct hire. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >>>>> make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. >>>> >>>> But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of >>>> short-term contract work. BTDT. >>>> >>> >>> It is not. I do this for a living. So why am I not stuck in a cheap >>> apartment? >> >> You work from home. That's not going to be done with low-level >> programming or verification jobs. <sheesh> > > >Well, we got that done successfully, several times. Over one ocean plus >some land. Apples and orangutangs. >>>>> For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >>>>> It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >>>>> as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >>>>> but many programmers do. >>>> >>>> They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to >>>> because they come to you. Different kettle. >>> >>> >>> It can be the same for programmers. They just have to become good enough >>> so people either come to them or are willing to do it remotely. We live >>> in a high-cost country and the only way to keep a decent job, temporary >>> or not, is by becoming good enough at what one is doing. >> >> No, it can't. These are low-level coding and test jobs. You know, >> that sort of cruft you won't do? >> > >Sometimes it is necessary to come out there and do it locally. Nothing >wrong with that, I've done that as well. Get a room at a hotel or some >extended-stay accommodation. You can still have a home to come home to. >You do not have to live your lief out of a suitcase. For six months? That means low-rent housing, something you were railing against, IIRC. > >>> >>> Example: The programmer for one of the projects I am involved in lives >>> and works in his own home about 7000 miles from here. It works. Another >>> works from his home about 3-4 miles from here and has mostly West Coast >>> clients. Whenever we have to work together I usually go there by >>> mountain bike. Even if we could get a certain task done remotely I >>> sometimes rode (and did not bill my client for that travel time) because >>> it's fun and healthy. >> >> We have a DSP engineer who lives in Montana, too. Completely >> different issue. You can't do that with a team of hundres of >> short-time transients. > > >I don't know your product but we have done exactly that with complicated >medical equipment design. In one rather extreme case there were half a >dozen local engineers and a dozen external ones. It ended up completely >blowing a competitor out of the water. I'm calling bullshit on that one. > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>>>>>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>>>>>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >>>>>> >>>>>> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. >>>>> >>>>> There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >>>>> prefer freelancing just because of that. >>>> >>>> It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for >>>> an employer. Two, in fact. >>>> >>> >>> If people feel like not marketing their skills themselves then they have >>> to live with the middleman company. I never did and never will. >> >> Good grief. The job has to be done. We can't just waive a stick and >> make a low-level coding job a high-level architect's job (though the >> US education system is trying). >> > >Then just "rent" the coders. There are plenty of US-based ones and if >needed they come out there. If it has to be H1B pay them accordingly and >all is good. What I am squarely against is abusing H1B to obtain cheap >indentured labor. We *are* renting the coders. They happen to be H1Bs.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-02-09 07:19 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eg3fj9Fr6uU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #446934 |
On 2017-02-08 17:13, krw@notreal.com wrote: > On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 12:16:32 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> On 2017-02-08 10:13, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2017-02-08 09:28, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:08:51 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2017-02-07 17:21, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:02:30 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2017-02-07 09:18, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2017 07:49:06 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-06 17:26, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-02-05 15:02, krw@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ... It really is impossible to find hundreds of >>>>>>>>>>>>> contractors, quickly, in the US. H1B contractors fill the crests in >>>>>>>>>>>>> workload so the employee base is more stable (we have a number of >>>>>>>>>>>>> contract EEs, too, but they're not H1Bs). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's perfectly ok to use H1B contractors. However, they need to be paid >>>>>>>>>>>> prevailing wage or higher and that must be _verified_ which is super >>>>>>>>>>>> easy to do. I have suggested that all the time but it wasn't done. Now >>>>>>>>>>>> it will be because the new administration seems to understand some stuff >>>>>>>>>>>> that previous ones didn't. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The H1Bs at my CPoE aren't paid the same as employees, sure, but they >>>>>>>>>>> don't have the same responsibilities, either. They're basically code >>>>>>>>>>> jockeys. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Once they have to start paying them $130k/year each they will probably >>>>>>>>>> find Americans for that job, and fast. There are plenty of un- or >>>>>>>>>> under-employed coders around. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, they'd just move *all* jobs overseas. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sure, that can happen. Then we need to find out why we cannot perform >>>>>>>> these design tasks here and do something about it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We can (do), if the government would let it alone. My job has been >>>>>>> "off-shored" from somewhere else. Do you want to stop that, too? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course not. Moving design tasks to where the talent is has always >>>>>> been a smart idea. Same if you can obtain sufficiently good results at a >>>>>> lower cost. In a world economy every region has to compete against >>>>>> another. Competiton is a good thing. What each region should, therefore, >>>>>> do is level the playing field. >>>>> >>>>> OK, so you want to leave the *foreign* US jobs here but don't want to >>>>> import *any* foreign workers to fill short-term positions, even if >>>>> they're paid similarly to (unavailable) locals, for the same skills. >>>> >>>> >>>> Huh? Where did I ever say that? >>> >>> You've been arguing for the elimination of the H1B. >> >> >> Where did I ever say that? Please quote. > > You want double the "minimum wage". That's the same damned thing. > It is not. As I said many times H1B is meant to get skilled labor on the world market. Skill that cannot be found here. If a company is unwilling to pay commensurate wage then they do not have a real shortage. It's that simple. >> >> >>> ... What other conclusion could one come to? >> >> >> That maybe you were wrong and I never said that. Because I didn't. > > You did. Baloney. I didn't and as expected you won't quote me because you can't. Don't start engaging in fake news :-) >> >>>> >>>>> You want to export *all* of those salaries. You want your cake and >>>>> eat it too. Got it. >>>>> >>>>>>> Getting rid of H1Bs is a good way to do it. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> They would still use your design team if they can't get the results locally. >>>>> >>>>> They were doing it at home but it makes sense to do it closer to the >>>>> customer. If the job is made more difficult to do here, it won't be. >>>>> That's the bottom line (for all business decisions). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Sure. That should always be made possible. It's got nothing to do with >>>> H1B, that is simply having a foreign design center. >>> >>> Of course it does. H1Bs are a "necessary evil" for the business to >>> exist here. >>> >> >> If the only way to get their designs done he is the inclusion of H1B >> specialists they should not have a problem paying the required wages, >> should they? > > [F . . | . . | . ./] > Logic Content Huh? At least the administration (finally!) understands this. It is sad that it took a landslide election to get there. Heck, the basic idea even came from the left and is essentially bipartisan. >> >>>>>>>>>> H1B was meant to obtain special talent that could not be found in the US >>>>>>>>>> or where we simply don't have enough engineers, not for hiring scores of >>>>>>>>>> cheap programmers. Now it will (hopefully) revert to that original intent. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Special" has lots of meanings. The restriction is that the job is >>>>>>>>> unfillable with resident labor. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why are they unfillable? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because not enough people want a three or six month programming job >>>>>>> with no chance of direct hire. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have met lots of people who do. Also, that still beats being unable to >>>>>> make a good living or being stuck in some cheap apartment. >>>>> >>>>> But they *will* be stuck in a cheap apartment. That's the nature of >>>>> short-term contract work. BTDT. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It is not. I do this for a living. So why am I not stuck in a cheap >>>> apartment? >>> >>> You work from home. That's not going to be done with low-level >>> programming or verification jobs. <sheesh> >> >> >> Well, we got that done successfully, several times. Over one ocean plus >> some land. > > Apples and orangutangs. > No, it was mostly organization skills. These were embedded products inside an intricate system where most people think it can't be done remotely yet it was successfully done. >>>>>> For me, having shorter term stints (until a project is complete) is fun. >>>>>> It provides a smorgasbord of tasks for me which are all different. Just >>>>>> as I want it. There are not many hardware engineers who feel that way >>>>>> but many programmers do. >>>>> >>>>> They simply don't want to move for short-term work. You don't have to >>>>> because they come to you. Different kettle. >>>> >>>> >>>> It can be the same for programmers. They just have to become good enough >>>> so people either come to them or are willing to do it remotely. We live >>>> in a high-cost country and the only way to keep a decent job, temporary >>>> or not, is by becoming good enough at what one is doing. >>> >>> No, it can't. These are low-level coding and test jobs. You know, >>> that sort of cruft you won't do? >>> >> >> Sometimes it is necessary to come out there and do it locally. Nothing >> wrong with that, I've done that as well. Get a room at a hotel or some >> extended-stay accommodation. You can still have a home to come home to. >> You do not have to live your lief out of a suitcase. > > For six months? That means low-rent housing, something you were > railing against, IIRC. I was not. Obtaining temporary housing either in a hotel, an extended-stay place or a rented apartment is not a problem for a technical professional. Just like camping in the wilderness isn't for someone with a requirement to work even more remotely. I have done it dozens of time. Key is you _have_ to have a _real_ _home_ to come back to. And I always did. Of course, the temporary accommodations have to be adequate so you can let your family follow at times and explore a new area together. My dad did that as well and thinking back to my times as a kid this was fun. >> >>>> >>>> Example: The programmer for one of the projects I am involved in lives >>>> and works in his own home about 7000 miles from here. It works. Another >>>> works from his home about 3-4 miles from here and has mostly West Coast >>>> clients. Whenever we have to work together I usually go there by >>>> mountain bike. Even if we could get a certain task done remotely I >>>> sometimes rode (and did not bill my client for that travel time) because >>>> it's fun and healthy. >>> >>> We have a DSP engineer who lives in Montana, too. Completely >>> different issue. You can't do that with a team of hundres of >>> short-time transients. >> >> >> I don't know your product but we have done exactly that with complicated >> medical equipment design. In one rather extreme case there were half a >> dozen local engineers and a dozen external ones. It ended up completely >> blowing a competitor out of the water. > > I'm calling bullshit on that one. So if you can't do something or you can't imagine something it is BS to you? Now you are sounding a bit like the drive-by media Limbaugh was always talking about. The folks who stood there with dropped jaws last Nov-8. >> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For certain high-skill or niche jobs it is certainly true. WRT >>>>>>>> programmers what I hear is more like the first part of this article, >>>>>>>> they are heaving trouble finding enough gigs or employment: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But they don't want to move for short term employment, either. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are more people than you think who abhor office politics and >>>>>> prefer freelancing just because of that. >>>>> >>>>> It's *NOT* freelancing. It's contract work. You're still working for >>>>> an employer. Two, in fact. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If people feel like not marketing their skills themselves then they have >>>> to live with the middleman company. I never did and never will. >>> >>> Good grief. The job has to be done. We can't just waive a stick and >>> make a low-level coding job a high-level architect's job (though the >>> US education system is trying). >>> >> >> Then just "rent" the coders. There are plenty of US-based ones and if >> needed they come out there. If it has to be H1B pay them accordingly and >> all is good. What I am squarely against is abusing H1B to obtain cheap >> indentured labor. > > We *are* renting the coders. They happen to be H1Bs. > Then rent local ones. There are plenty. Pretty soon you will have to or it'll get expensive. H1B was never meant to temp-hire people without niche skills, shouldn't be used for that and in the near future very likely won't be used for that anymore. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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