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no gmail with yosemite

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  no gmail with yosemite J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-05 14:20 -0400
    Re: no gmail with yosemite Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-04-05 15:41 -0400
      Re: no gmail with yosemite Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-04-05 19:50 +0000
        Re: no gmail with yosemite Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-04-05 16:35 -0400
          Re: no gmail with yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-06 01:02 +0000
      Re: no gmail with yosemite J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-05 21:11 -0400
        Re: no gmail with yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-06 03:58 +0000
          Re: no gmail with yosemite J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 01:33 -0400
            Re: no gmail with yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-06 13:15 +0000
              Re: no gmail with yosemite J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 15:56 -0400
                Re: no gmail with yosemite dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-04-07 08:50 +1200
                  Re: no gmail with yosemite J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 17:16 -0400
                    Re: no gmail with yosemite dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2015-04-07 11:08 +1200
                      Re: no gmail with yosemite J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 20:24 -0400
                  Re: no gmail with yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-07 02:40 +0000
                Re: no gmail with yosemite Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-04-07 02:27 +0000
                  Re: no gmail with yosemite J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> - 2015-04-06 23:12 -0400
                    Re: no gmail with yosemite Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-04-07 16:11 +1200
        Re: no gmail with yosemite Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-04-06 09:58 -0400

#72679 — no gmail with yosemite

Mail.app has been unable to log onto smtp.gmail.com since November 14. 
That's probably when I went from mavericks to yosemite.

There had been no password requests. Mail.app automatically used another 
smtp server when I sent messages from my gmail pop account.  I noticed 
only yesterday that I wasn't logging onto the smtp.gmail server.

I used google instructions and mac-forum tips for account preferences in 
case anything was wrong but still could not log onto the smtp server.

I removed the google account from mail.app and started over. First I 
made screen shots of the account preferences, in case google's 
instructions didn't work for me.

Yosemite is supposed to set up a gmail imap or pop account automatically 
of you supply your user name and password. Again and again, it said they 
were invalid.  They'd been valid for pop an hour ago and were still 
valid for web mail, which said pop was activated.

After several failures, yosemite said I'd have to do it manually. Until 
an hour ago, I did, but now I couldn't log on to either server.

I logged off and went to an empty user account in yosemite. When I told 
mail.app I wanted to set up a google mail account, it was the same 
story, my user name and password were invalid.

Is there any way to have gmail pop/stmp with mail.app under yosemite?

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#72686

On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
> Mail.app has been unable to log onto smtp.gmail.com since November 14.
> That's probably when I went from mavericks to yosemite.

In all your mail accounts (Mail|Preferences|Advanced), uncheck the box:
	Automatically detect and maintain account settings.
Unfortunately this feature of Apple's is buggy.

> There had been no password requests. Mail.app automatically used another
> smtp server when I sent messages from my gmail pop account.  I noticed
> only yesterday that I wasn't logging onto the smtp.gmail server.

With GMail (and some care) I find IMAP works very nicely.  You have to 
make sure certain settings on the gmail website IMAP settings are 
correct to work well with Apple Mail.

eg: 	Auto-expunge: OFF

> I used google instructions and mac-forum tips for account preferences in
> case anything was wrong but still could not log onto the smtp server.

Patience and try, try, try again...

Make sure the Port (IMAP) is 993 with "Use SSL" checked.  (Password 
authentication selected).

> I removed the google account from mail.app and started over. First I
> made screen shots of the account preferences, in case google's
> instructions didn't work for me.
>
> Yosemite is supposed to set up a gmail imap or pop account automatically

It should prefer IMAP

> of you supply your user name and password. Again and again, it said they
> were invalid.  They'd been valid for pop an hour ago and were still
> valid for web mail, which said pop was activated.

Note that yesterday afternoon GMail was not working well (you could 
"fetch" but not send e-mails).

>
> After several failures, yosemite said I'd have to do it manually. Until
> an hour ago, I did, but now I couldn't log on to either server.
>
> I logged off and went to an empty user account in yosemite. When I told
> mail.app I wanted to set up a google mail account, it was the same
> story, my user name and password were invalid.
>
> Is there any way to have gmail pop/stmp with mail.app under yosemite?

Yep.  I have two such (IMAP) accounts.

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#72687

On 2015-04-05, Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>> Mail.app has been unable to log onto smtp.gmail.com since November 14.
>> That's probably when I went from mavericks to yosemite.
>
> In all your mail accounts (Mail|Preferences|Advanced), uncheck the box:
> 	Automatically detect and maintain account settings.
> Unfortunately this feature of Apple's is buggy.

Strangely, I have that feature enabled with no problems; but I am using
IMAP rather than POP.

>> There had been no password requests. Mail.app automatically used another
>> smtp server when I sent messages from my gmail pop account.  I noticed
>> only yesterday that I wasn't logging onto the smtp.gmail server.
>
> With GMail (and some care) I find IMAP works very nicely.  You have to 
> make sure certain settings on the gmail website IMAP settings are 
> correct to work well with Apple Mail.
>
> eg: 	Auto-expunge: OFF

I have that enabled.

>> I used google instructions and mac-forum tips for account preferences in
>> case anything was wrong but still could not log onto the smtp server.
>
> Patience and try, try, try again...
>
> Make sure the Port (IMAP) is 993 with "Use SSL" checked.  (Password 
> authentication selected).

That's how mine is set.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#72688

On 2015-04-05 15:50, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2015-04-05, Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>>> Mail.app has been unable to log onto smtp.gmail.com since November 14.
>>> That's probably when I went from mavericks to yosemite.
>>
>> In all your mail accounts (Mail|Preferences|Advanced), uncheck the box:
>> 	Automatically detect and maintain account settings.
>> Unfortunately this feature of Apple's is buggy.
>
> Strangely, I have that feature enabled with no problems; but I am using
> IMAP rather than POP.

I'm using IMAP.  If I leave that setting checked, from time to time the 
settings get screwed up.  This is a known bug.

>
>>> There had been no password requests. Mail.app automatically used another
>>> smtp server when I sent messages from my gmail pop account.  I noticed
>>> only yesterday that I wasn't logging onto the smtp.gmail server.
>>
>> With GMail (and some care) I find IMAP works very nicely.  You have to
>> make sure certain settings on the gmail website IMAP settings are
>> correct to work well with Apple Mail.
>>
>> eg: 	Auto-expunge: OFF
>
> I have that enabled.

When I had it enabled (this goes back a year or so) it caused some 
issues (I don't recall specifically).  With it off no problem.



>>> I used google instructions and mac-forum tips for account preferences in
>>> case anything was wrong but still could not log onto the smtp server.
>>
>> Patience and try, try, try again...
>>
>> Make sure the Port (IMAP) is 993 with "Use SSL" checked.  (Password
>> authentication selected).
>
> That's how mine is set.
>

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#72703

In message <H8edndnA9a4FAbzInZ2dnUU7-a-dnZ2d@giganews.com> 
  Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2015-04-05 15:50, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2015-04-05, Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>>>> Mail.app has been unable to log onto smtp.gmail.com since November 14.
>>>> That's probably when I went from mavericks to yosemite.
>>>
>>> In all your mail accounts (Mail|Preferences|Advanced), uncheck the box:
>>> 	Automatically detect and maintain account settings.
>>> Unfortunately this feature of Apple's is buggy.
>>
>> Strangely, I have that feature enabled with no problems; but I am using
>> IMAP rather than POP.

> I'm using IMAP.  If I leave that setting checked, from time to time the 
> settings get screwed up.

Works fine for me. In 10.10 (that is to say, not 10.10.1 or 10.10.2(
that automatic setting in SMTP servers caused some problems, but that's
no longer the case.

> This is a known bug.

Was.

-- 
Q: Does anyone know how many LOCs were in the Space Shuttle' codebase?
A: 45. It was written in perl (paraphrased Slashdot discussion)

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#72704

On 4/5/15, 3:41 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>>
>> I removed the google account from mail.app and started over. First I
>> made screen shots of the account preferences, in case google's
>> instructions didn't work for me.
>>
>> Yosemite is supposed to set up a gmail imap or pop account automatically
>
> It should prefer IMAP
>
>> of you supply your user name and password. Again and again, it said they
>> were invalid.  They'd been valid for pop an hour ago and were still
>> valid for web mail, which said pop was activated.
>
> Note that yesterday afternoon GMail was not working well (you could
> "fetch" but not send e-mails).

I wish you'd told me that Mail.app and Safari no longer store Google 
passwords in Keychain.

I checked the keychain for my web, imap, pop, and smtp password.  It was 
the same as always.  Then, through web access, I happened to notice that 
my password had been changed in November.  I signed out and signed in 
manually, using the password in keychain.  I was rejected.

My Text Edit notes refreshed my memory.  When I signed onto google on 
the web in November, they demanded that I change from my 10-character 
password to something longer. I figured that if I later needed the new 
password for another google service, I could find it in Keychain, but I 
made a Text Edit note, like a belt in addition to suspenders.

In Mail.app, pop probably called for my new password within a few 
minutes. To send from that account, Mail.app simply used another smtp 
server, never asking me for my google password.  That's why I was 
unaware of the problem for more than 4 months.  There was no clue in 
Keychain because the new password never appeared there.
>
>>
>> After several failures, yosemite said I'd have to do it manually. Until
>> an hour ago, I did, but now I couldn't log on to either server.
>>
>> I logged off and went to an empty user account in yosemite. When I told
>> mail.app I wanted to set up a google mail account, it was the same
>> story, my user name and password were invalid.
>>
>> Is there any way to have gmail pop/stmp with mail.app under yosemite?
>
> Yep.  I have two such (IMAP) accounts.
>
>
Before I found my old memo of the password change, I'd deleted the gmail 
account in Mail.app by hitting the minus sign in preferences. I tried to 
set up Mail.app anew with gamail by hitting New Account.  It kept 
ignoring my username/password.  Thunderbird still worked with that account.

By clicking Accounts instead of New Account, I found that Yosemite still 
listed my google account, although it didn't show up in Mail.  Deleting 
that solved the problem.

Why didn't you tell me Yosemite is that sneaky? I'll bet Apple and 
Google have bought the US Post Office. By keeping a user's email account 
secure from the user, they're working together to drive customers to 
snail mail, the wave of the future.

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#72707

In message <mfsmdj$6cc$1@dont-email.me> 
  J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 4/5/15, 3:41 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>>>
>>> I removed the google account from mail.app and started over. First I
>>> made screen shots of the account preferences, in case google's
>>> instructions didn't work for me.
>>>
>>> Yosemite is supposed to set up a gmail imap or pop account automatically
>>
>> It should prefer IMAP
>>
>>> of you supply your user name and password. Again and again, it said they
>>> were invalid.  They'd been valid for pop an hour ago and were still
>>> valid for web mail, which said pop was activated.
>>
>> Note that yesterday afternoon GMail was not working well (you could
>> "fetch" but not send e-mails).

> I wish you'd told me that Mail.app and Safari no longer store Google 
> passwords in Keychain.

Of course it does.

> I checked the keychain for my web, imap, pop, and smtp password.  It was 
> the same as always.  Then, through web access, I happened to notice that 
> my password had been changed in November.  I signed out and signed in 
> manually, using the password in keychain.  I was rejected.

> My Text Edit notes refreshed my memory.  When I signed onto google on 
> the web in November, they demanded that I change from my 10-character 
> password to something longer. I figured that if I later needed the new 
> password for another google service, I could find it in Keychain, but I 
> made a Text Edit note, like a belt in addition to suspenders.

> In Mail.app, pop probably called for my new password within a few 
> minutes. To send from that account, Mail.app simply used another smtp 
> server, never asking me for my google password.  That's why I was 
> unaware of the problem for more than 4 months.  There was no clue in 
> Keychain because the new password never appeared there.

Don't know what you did, but my google passwords have always updated
just fine. If it was conencting to a new server that it had an old
password for, it would use the old password. Should give a password
error if you use the wrong one, but I haven't used POP in 15 years
(because it's crap).

> Before I found my old memo of the password change, I'd deleted the gmail 
> account in Mail.app by hitting the minus sign in preferences. 

That should have told you something was wrong (probably because you
manually added the account). Accounts should be added and removed in the
Internet Accounts System Preference. Normally, if you try to delete an
account in Mail, it will tell you to delete it in System Preferences.

-- 
And she was looking at herself
And things were looking like a movie
She had a pleasant elevation
She's moving out in all directions

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#72713

On 4/5/15, 11:58 PM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <mfsmdj$6cc$1@dont-email.me>
>    J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 4/5/15, 3:41 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I removed the google account from mail.app and started over. First I
>>>> made screen shots of the account preferences, in case google's
>>>> instructions didn't work for me.
>>>>
>>>> Yosemite is supposed to set up a gmail imap or pop account automatically
>>>
>>> It should prefer IMAP
>>>
>>>> of you supply your user name and password. Again and again, it said they
>>>> were invalid.  They'd been valid for pop an hour ago and were still
>>>> valid for web mail, which said pop was activated.
>>>
>>> Note that yesterday afternoon GMail was not working well (you could
>>> "fetch" but not send e-mails).
>
>> I wish you'd told me that Mail.app and Safari no longer store Google
>> passwords in Keychain.
>
> Of course it does.

Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in 
Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from 
Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I 
didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local Items.


> Don't know what you did, but my google passwords have always updated
> just fine. If it was conencting to a new server that it had an old
> password for, it would use the old password. Should give a password
> error if you use the wrong one,

I tried to explain that.  Instead of giving me a password error, Mail 
simply used an alternate smtp server.

> but I haven't used POP in 15 years
> (because it's crap).

Sorry for mentioning POP. I'll try to remember that it's crap.

>
>> Before I found my old memo of the password change, I'd deleted the gmail
>> account in Mail.app by hitting the minus sign in preferences.
>
> That should have told you something was wrong (probably because you
> manually added the account). Accounts should be added and removed in the
> Internet Accounts System Preference. Normally, if you try to delete an
> account in Mail, it will tell you to delete it in System Preferences.
>
I'll bet I'm not the only fool who deleted a mail account in Mail. Maybe 
Apple will fix it in OS 10.11.  All it would take would be a little 
sign, "DON'T CLICK THIS BUTTON!!!"

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#72719

In message <mft5p6$g5v$1@dont-email.me> 
  J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 4/5/15, 11:58 PM, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <mfsmdj$6cc$1@dont-email.me>
>>    J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/5/15, 3:41 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I removed the google account from mail.app and started over. First I
>>>>> made screen shots of the account preferences, in case google's
>>>>> instructions didn't work for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yosemite is supposed to set up a gmail imap or pop account automatically
>>>>
>>>> It should prefer IMAP
>>>>
>>>>> of you supply your user name and password. Again and again, it said they
>>>>> were invalid.  They'd been valid for pop an hour ago and were still
>>>>> valid for web mail, which said pop was activated.
>>>>
>>>> Note that yesterday afternoon GMail was not working well (you could
>>>> "fetch" but not send e-mails).
>>
>>> I wish you'd told me that Mail.app and Safari no longer store Google
>>> passwords in Keychain.
>>
>> Of course it does.

> Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in 
> Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from 
> Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I 
> didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local Items.

I have a login keychain and an iCloud keychain. I do not have "Local
Items". I used to have my primary keychain set to my account name, but
over the last couple of OS Versions I've found that the OS really
doesn't like that and will create a login keychain frequently, so since
most my passwords are in in the iCloud keychain anyway, I stopped trying
to force a <username> keychain file.


>> Don't know what you did, but my google passwords have always updated
>> just fine. If it was conencting to a new server that it had an old
>> password for, it would use the old password. Should give a password
>> error if you use the wrong one,

> I tried to explain that.  Instead of giving me a password error, Mail 
> simply used an alternate smtp server.

That is odd, since on my system it will come up with an error and ask to
use another SMTP server if it can't send mail.

> I'll bet I'm not the only fool who deleted a mail account in Mail. Maybe 
> Apple will fix it in OS 10.11.  All it would take would be a little 
> sign, "DON'T CLICK THIS BUTTON!!!"

If you DO click that button you get (well, I get) a dialog that the
account is shared and I should delete it via the Internet Accounts
System Preferences.

<https://www.dropbox.com/s/154f63w4ect7hip/Screenshot%202015-04-06%2007.11.49.png?dl=0>

Maybe you aren't using iCloud?

-- 
OS X 10.5 is going to have spots?

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#72731

On 4/6/15, 9:15 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <mft5p6$g5v$1@dont-email.me>
>    J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in
>> Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from
>> Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I
>> didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local Items.
>
> I have a login keychain and an iCloud keychain. I do not have "Local
> Items". I used to have my primary keychain set to my account name, but
> over the last couple of OS Versions I've found that the OS really
> doesn't like that and will create a login keychain frequently, so since
> most my passwords are in in the iCloud keychain anyway, I stopped trying
> to force a <username> keychain file.
>
I'll bet Apple came up with Local Items for passwords that shouldn't go 
on iCloud.  I'm not on iCloud, so since December of 2013, most of my 
passwords had gone to Local Items.  Fooled me!
>
>>> Don't know what you did, but my google passwords have always updated
>>> just fine. If it was conencting to a new server that it had an old
>>> password for, it would use the old password. Should give a password
>>> error if you use the wrong one,
>
>> I tried to explain that.  Instead of giving me a password error, Mail
>> simply used an alternate smtp server.
>
> That is odd, since on my system it will come up with an error and ask to
> use another SMTP server if it can't send mail.

In Mail.app Preferences, where you can choose which smtp server an 
account will use, there's a checkbox saying "Use only this server." For 
my gmail account, it was unchecked. I don't know if I unchecked it or it 
was unchecked by default.
>
>> I'll bet I'm not the only fool who deleted a mail account in Mail. Maybe
>> Apple will fix it in OS 10.11.  All it would take would be a little
>> sign, "DON'T CLICK THIS BUTTON!!!"
>
> If you DO click that button you get (well, I get) a dialog that the
> account is shared and I should delete it via the Internet Accounts
> System Preferences.
>
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/154f63w4ect7hip/Screenshot%202015-04-06%2007.11.49.png?dl=0>
>
> Maybe you aren't using iCloud?
>
I'll bet that's the difference. If I tried to talk on a cellphone while 
walking, I'd walk into a tree.  Portable devices aren't for me!

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#72732

J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 4/6/15, 9:15 AM, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <mft5p6$g5v$1@dont-email.me>
> >    J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in
> >> Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from
> >> Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I
> >> didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local Items.
> >
> > I have a login keychain and an iCloud keychain. I do not have "Local
> > Items". I used to have my primary keychain set to my account name, but
> > over the last couple of OS Versions I've found that the OS really
> > doesn't like that and will create a login keychain frequently, so since
> > most my passwords are in in the iCloud keychain anyway, I stopped trying
> > to force a <username> keychain file.
> >
> I'll bet Apple came up with Local Items for passwords that shouldn't go
> on iCloud.  I'm not on iCloud, so since December of 2013, most of my 
> passwords had gone to Local Items.  Fooled me!

"Local Items" is the same as the "iCloud" keychain, just without the
iCloud connection. If you sign in or out of iCloud Keychain, that
keychain is renamed accordingly.

The "login" keychain still exists despite having the "Local Items" or
"iCloud" keychain. I haven't had a close enough look to work out what
"login" is still being used for, but mine has a lot of items which
postdate my upgrade to Mavericks (and first use of iCloud Keychain).

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#72737

On 4/6/15, 4:50 PM, David Empson wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/6/15, 9:15 AM, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <mft5p6$g5v$1@dont-email.me>
>>>     J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in
>>>> Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from
>>>> Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I
>>>> didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local Items.
>>>
>>> I have a login keychain and an iCloud keychain. I do not have "Local
>>> Items". I used to have my primary keychain set to my account name, but
>>> over the last couple of OS Versions I've found that the OS really
>>> doesn't like that and will create a login keychain frequently, so since
>>> most my passwords are in in the iCloud keychain anyway, I stopped trying
>>> to force a <username> keychain file.
>>>
>> I'll bet Apple came up with Local Items for passwords that shouldn't go
>> on iCloud.  I'm not on iCloud, so since December of 2013, most of my
>> passwords had gone to Local Items.  Fooled me!
>
> "Local Items" is the same as the "iCloud" keychain, just without the
> iCloud connection. If you sign in or out of iCloud Keychain, that
> keychain is renamed accordingly.
>
> The "login" keychain still exists despite having the "Local Items" or
> "iCloud" keychain. I haven't had a close enough look to work out what
> "login" is still being used for, but mine has a lot of items which
> postdate my upgrade to Mavericks (and first use of iCloud Keychain).
>
My Login has 12 passwords dated (modified) since I went to Mavericks. 
Two are Google authentication tokens (one for smtp).

Here are the other 10.
ids: message protection key
iTunesiAd password
Safari Session State Key
com.apple.ids: localdevice-Authtoken
ids: message-protection-public-data-registered
com.apple.ids: DeviceHBI
ids: personal-public-key-cache
ids: personal-session-token-cache
com.apple.facetime: registrationV1
Safari Extensions List

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#72743

J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 4/6/15, 4:50 PM, David Empson wrote:
> > J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/6/15, 9:15 AM, Lewis wrote:
> >>> In message <mft5p6$g5v$1@dont-email.me>
> >>>     J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in
> >>>> Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from
> >>>> Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I
> >>>> didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local
> >>>> Items.
> >>>
> >>> I have a login keychain and an iCloud keychain. I do not have "Local
> >>> Items". I used to have my primary keychain set to my account name, but
> >>> over the last couple of OS Versions I've found that the OS really
> >>> doesn't like that and will create a login keychain frequently, so since
> >>> most my passwords are in in the iCloud keychain anyway, I stopped trying
> >>> to force a <username> keychain file.
> >>>
> >> I'll bet Apple came up with Local Items for passwords that shouldn't go
> >> on iCloud.  I'm not on iCloud, so since December of 2013, most of my
> >> passwords had gone to Local Items.  Fooled me!
> >
> > "Local Items" is the same as the "iCloud" keychain, just without the
> > iCloud connection. If you sign in or out of iCloud Keychain, that
> > keychain is renamed accordingly.
> >
> > The "login" keychain still exists despite having the "Local Items" or
> > "iCloud" keychain. I haven't had a close enough look to work out what
> > "login" is still being used for, but mine has a lot of items which
> > postdate my upgrade to Mavericks (and first use of iCloud Keychain).
> >
> My Login has 12 passwords dated (modified) since I went to Mavericks.
> Two are Google authentication tokens (one for smtp).
> 
> Here are the other 10.
> ids: message protection key
> iTunesiAd password
> Safari Session State Key
> com.apple.ids: localdevice-Authtoken
> ids: message-protection-public-data-registered
> com.apple.ids: DeviceHBI
> ids: personal-public-key-cache
> ids: personal-session-token-cache
> com.apple.facetime: registrationV1
> Safari Extensions List

From a quick glance, it appears the iCloud or Local Items keychain can
only contain a limited subset of record kinds (presumably the ones which
are also supported by iOS), so login keychain gets everything else (I
have lots of record kinds in my login keychain).

All of the items in my iCloud keychain are of these kinds:

Airport network password
application password
Internet password
MobileMe password
Web form password

Some of those kinds also appear in my login keychain (including items
which have been modified since I upgraded to Mavericks): application
password, Internet password, MobileMe password, Web form password.

The division between the two keychains for most of these kinds is not
clear. The MobileMe passwords (presumably iCloud passwords but the kind
hasn't been renamed) are the same in both keychains.

Airport network passwords are only in the iCloud keychain (with another
copy in the System keychain). I recall that they used to be in the login
keychain prior to Mavericks, so Mavericks moved them all to the Local
Items (or iCloud) keychain.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

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#72746

On 4/6/15, 7:08 PM, David Empson wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/6/15, 4:50 PM, David Empson wrote:
>>> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/6/15, 9:15 AM, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <mft5p6$g5v$1@dont-email.me>
>>>>>      J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in
>>>>>> Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from
>>>>>> Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I
>>>>>> didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local
>>>>>> Items.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a login keychain and an iCloud keychain. I do not have "Local
>>>>> Items". I used to have my primary keychain set to my account name, but
>>>>> over the last couple of OS Versions I've found that the OS really
>>>>> doesn't like that and will create a login keychain frequently, so since
>>>>> most my passwords are in in the iCloud keychain anyway, I stopped trying
>>>>> to force a <username> keychain file.
>>>>>
>>>> I'll bet Apple came up with Local Items for passwords that shouldn't go
>>>> on iCloud.  I'm not on iCloud, so since December of 2013, most of my
>>>> passwords had gone to Local Items.  Fooled me!
>>>
>>> "Local Items" is the same as the "iCloud" keychain, just without the
>>> iCloud connection. If you sign in or out of iCloud Keychain, that
>>> keychain is renamed accordingly.
>>>
>>> The "login" keychain still exists despite having the "Local Items" or
>>> "iCloud" keychain. I haven't had a close enough look to work out what
>>> "login" is still being used for, but mine has a lot of items which
>>> postdate my upgrade to Mavericks (and first use of iCloud Keychain).
>>>
>> My Login has 12 passwords dated (modified) since I went to Mavericks.
>> Two are Google authentication tokens (one for smtp).
>>
>> Here are the other 10.
>> ids: message protection key
>> iTunesiAd password
>> Safari Session State Key
>> com.apple.ids: localdevice-Authtoken
>> ids: message-protection-public-data-registered
>> com.apple.ids: DeviceHBI
>> ids: personal-public-key-cache
>> ids: personal-session-token-cache
>> com.apple.facetime: registrationV1
>> Safari Extensions List
>
>  From a quick glance, it appears the iCloud or Local Items keychain can
> only contain a limited subset of record kinds (presumably the ones which
> are also supported by iOS), so login keychain gets everything else (I
> have lots of record kinds in my login keychain).
>
> All of the items in my iCloud keychain are of these kinds:
>
> Airport network password
> application password
> Internet password
> MobileMe password
> Web form password
>
> Some of those kinds also appear in my login keychain (including items
> which have been modified since I upgraded to Mavericks): application
> password, Internet password, MobileMe password, Web form password.
>
> The division between the two keychains for most of these kinds is not
> clear. The MobileMe passwords (presumably iCloud passwords but the kind
> hasn't been renamed) are the same in both keychains.
>
> Airport network passwords are only in the iCloud keychain (with another
> copy in the System keychain). I recall that they used to be in the login
> keychain prior to Mavericks, so Mavericks moved them all to the Local
> Items (or iCloud) keychain.
>
Of my 12, 11 are listed as application passwords. The other is iTunesiAd 
password.

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#72757

In message <1m2i2pf.8lgpv215yk2m2N%dempson@actrix.gen.nz> 
  David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:

>> On 4/6/15, 9:15 AM, Lewis wrote:
>> > In message <mft5p6$g5v$1@dont-email.me>
>> >    J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Can you tell me the difference between Login and Local Items in
>> >> Keychain? Login items run from 2012 until today. Local Items run from
>> >> Mavericks until today. I saw all my mail server passwords in Login. I
>> >> didn't know Keychain also kept passwords for those servers in Local Items.
>> >
>> > I have a login keychain and an iCloud keychain. I do not have "Local
>> > Items". I used to have my primary keychain set to my account name, but
>> > over the last couple of OS Versions I've found that the OS really
>> > doesn't like that and will create a login keychain frequently, so since
>> > most my passwords are in in the iCloud keychain anyway, I stopped trying
>> > to force a <username> keychain file.
>> >
>> I'll bet Apple came up with Local Items for passwords that shouldn't go
>> on iCloud.  I'm not on iCloud, so since December of 2013, most of my 
>> passwords had gone to Local Items.  Fooled me!

> "Local Items" is the same as the "iCloud" keychain, just without the
> iCloud connection. If you sign in or out of iCloud Keychain, that
> keychain is renamed accordingly.

Makes sense.

> The "login" keychain still exists despite having the "Local Items" or
> "iCloud" keychain. I haven't had a close enough look to work out what
> "login" is still being used for, but mine has a lot of items which
> postdate my upgrade to Mavericks (and first use of iCloud Keychain).

Mine has no logins, but has Applications password, Airport passwords for
the local AirPort devices, certificates, handoff keys, keys, and Network
device passwords.

All the Internet passwords and web-form passwords are in the iCLoud
keychain along with the various wifi network passwords and some
Application passwords.

Not sure why some Application Passwords are in iCloud and some are not.
I may have moved some manually?

-- 
Words have meanings, but not here.

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#72756

In message <mfuoba$cm$1@dont-email.me> 
  J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> I'll bet that's the difference. If I tried to talk on a cellphone while 
> walking, I'd walk into a tree.  Portable devices aren't for me!

iCloud is very useful even without any portable devices.

-- 
'If you sow dragons' teeth, you should get dragons. Not fighting
skeletons. What did it say on the packet?' 'I don't know! The myth never
said anything about them coming in a packet!' 'Should have said "Comes
up Dragons" on the packet.'

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#72761

On 4/6/15, 10:27 PM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <mfuoba$cm$1@dont-email.me>
>    J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> I'll bet that's the difference. If I tried to talk on a cellphone while
>> walking, I'd walk into a tree.  Portable devices aren't for me!
>
> iCloud is very useful even without any portable devices.
>
I imagine I could use it to share files, but the need hasn't arisen.
I imagine I could use it for backups in case somebody stole all my media.
Is it good for other things?

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#72768

In article <mfvhto$hfc$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com>
wrote:
> On 4/6/15, 10:27 PM, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <mfuoba$cm$1@dont-email.me>
> >    J Burns <burns4@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'll bet that's the difference. If I tried to talk on a cellphone while
> >> walking, I'd walk into a tree.  Portable devices aren't for me!
> >
> > iCloud is very useful even without any portable devices.
> >
> I imagine I could use it to share files, but the need hasn't arisen.
> I imagine I could use it for backups in case somebody stole all my media.
> Is it good for other things?

You can edit some iCloud documents via webbrowser based versions of
Apple's iWork applications - so you could start a Numbers spreadsheet
at home on your Mac, and continue working on it using the clumsy
Windoze PC at your workplace ... in your lunch break of course. ;-)

But realistically, for most people, iCloud is not very useful
(especially thanks to the silly data caps, slow / flakey internet, and
overpriced mobile data costs in many places). You're better to save
that Numbers spreadsheet as an Excel spreadsheet and take it to work on
a USB key ring drive.

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#72722

On 2015-04-05 21:11, J Burns wrote:
> On 4/5/15, 3:41 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2015-04-05 14:20, J Burns wrote:
>>>
>>> I removed the google account from mail.app and started over. First I
>>> made screen shots of the account preferences, in case google's
>>> instructions didn't work for me.
>>>
>>> Yosemite is supposed to set up a gmail imap or pop account automatically
>>
>> It should prefer IMAP
>>
>>> of you supply your user name and password. Again and again, it said they
>>> were invalid.  They'd been valid for pop an hour ago and were still
>>> valid for web mail, which said pop was activated.
>>
>> Note that yesterday afternoon GMail was not working well (you could
>> "fetch" but not send e-mails).
>
> I wish you'd told me that Mail.app and Safari no longer store Google
> passwords in Keychain.

uhhhh .... I didn't tell you that because it (Mail) does and presumably 
so does Safari (which I don't use much).

>
> I checked the keychain for my web, imap, pop, and smtp password.  It was
> the same as always.  Then, through web access, I happened to notice that
> my password had been changed in November.  I signed out and signed in
> manually, using the password in keychain.  I was rejected.

Mystery to me.  Something got munged somewhere.  I there an older (or 
newer) v. of the password in keychain that should be used in lieu of 
what was used?

> My Text Edit notes refreshed my memory.  When I signed onto google on
> the web in November, they demanded that I change from my 10-character
> password to something longer. I figured that if I later needed the new
> password for another google service, I could find it in Keychain, but I
> made a Text Edit note, like a belt in addition to suspenders.

And generally a security no-no.

> In Mail.app, pop probably called for my new password within a few
> minutes. To send from that account, Mail.app simply used another smtp
> server, never asking me for my google password.  That's why I was
> unaware of the problem for more than 4 months.  There was no clue in
> Keychain because the new password never appeared there.

More likely you were presented the option to use a different server (for 
sending), selected one and forgot about it.


>>
>>>
>>> After several failures, yosemite said I'd have to do it manually. Until
>>> an hour ago, I did, but now I couldn't log on to either server.
>>>
>>> I logged off and went to an empty user account in yosemite. When I told
>>> mail.app I wanted to set up a google mail account, it was the same
>>> story, my user name and password were invalid.
>>>
>>> Is there any way to have gmail pop/stmp with mail.app under yosemite?
>>
>> Yep.  I have two such (IMAP) accounts.
>>
>>
> Before I found my old memo of the password change, I'd deleted the gmail
> account in Mail.app by hitting the minus sign in preferences. I tried to
> set up Mail.app anew with gamail by hitting New Account.  It kept
> ignoring my username/password.  Thunderbird still worked with that account.
>
> By clicking Accounts instead of New Account, I found that Yosemite still
> listed my google account, although it didn't show up in Mail.  Deleting
> that solved the problem.
>
> Why didn't you tell me Yosemite is that sneaky? I'll bet Apple and

I have to tell you everything?  Mavericks/Yosemite Mail issues regarding 
passwords abound and are mentioned on various blogs and fora including 
the Apple Forums.

> Google have bought the US Post Office. By keeping a user's email account
> secure from the user, they're working together to drive customers to
> snail mail, the wave of the future.

Wow.  I didn't know that.  Thanks.

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