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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #29351 > unrolled thread

Losing my religion(?)

Started byRich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid>
First post2012-08-12 17:06 -0400
Last post2012-08-14 18:17 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 186 — 23 participants

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Contents

  Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-12 17:06 -0400
    Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-12 19:55 -0400
      Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-12 20:24 -0400
        Re: Losing my religion(?) isw <isw@witzend.com> - 2012-08-12 23:19 -0700
          Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 03:06 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 11:42 -0700
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-13 12:11 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-13 12:29 -0700
                  Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-14 15:30 +0000
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:46 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 12:32 -0700
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:32 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 16:08 -0400
                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 18:29 -0700
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 23:32 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-14 23:01 -0400
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 03:14 +0000
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:51 -0600
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:52 +0000
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:06 -0600
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 00:44 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 01:04 -0400
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:35 +0200
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:45 -0700
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 13:59 -0400
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:38 -0400
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 06:11 +0200
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 00:46 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 08:04 +0000
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:24 -0700
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:52 -0700
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 14:54 -0400
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 12:01 -0700
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 15:42 -0400
                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 22:40 +0200
                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:43 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:56 +0200
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:57 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:28 +0000
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:01 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:29 +0000
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:06 -0400
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:33 -0700
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:50 -0400
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 22:27 -0700
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 01:32 -0400
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-16 09:14 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:21 -0400
                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 06:13 +0000
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:56 -0600
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 12:19 +0200
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:37 -0600
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:07 -0400
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:55 -0400
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:17 +0200
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:15 +0200
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:50 +0200
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:15 -0600
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:49 -0400
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:18 +0000
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:08 -0400
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:45 +0200
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:14 -0400
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:05 +0200
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:26 -0500
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:20 -0700
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) sbt <dogbreath@chaseabone.com.invalid> - 2012-08-14 08:51 -0700
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 09:31 -0700
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 10:09 -0700
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:19 -0600
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:16 -0600
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 08:58 -0700
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:39 -0400
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 14:54 -0400
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:19 -0700
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 12:05 -0700
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 15:11 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:12 -0700
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:17 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:08 +0200
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-16 09:37 -0700
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:49 +0200
                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 10:29 -0700
                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 16:52 -0400
                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:19 -0700
                                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:54 -0700
                                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 20:13 -0400
                                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 18:09 -0700
                                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-18 06:34 +0000
                                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-18 18:40 +0200
                                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 13:19 -0400
                                              Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 14:46 -0500
                                                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 16:45 -0400
                                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 15:59 -0500
                                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:05 -0400
                                                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-18 13:49 -0700
                                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 16:02 -0500
                                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-18 19:09 -0400
                                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 22:05 -0500
                                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-19 05:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-19 13:42 +0200
                                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-19 03:39 +0000
                                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:19 -0400
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0600
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:41 -0600
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 01:05 +0000
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 08:02 -0700
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 15:36 +0000
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:53 -0400
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 04:27 +0000
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 06:35 +0000
                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:26 +0200
                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 13:02 +0000
                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 12:57 +0000
                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 15:49 +0000
                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-17 04:57 +0000
                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 09:36 -0700
                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 14:43 -0400
                                        Auto-Save, Ask to save changes, etc (Re: Losing my religion(?)) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 12:31 -0700
                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 20:21 -0400
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 03:49 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 12:54 -0400
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:53 -0400
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:28 -0600
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:04 +0200
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:26 -0600
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:37 -0400
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:28 -0600
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:22 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:10 +0000
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:17 -0600
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:06 +0000
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0600
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2012-08-15 09:50 -0600
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 09:39 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:28 +0000
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 19:43 -0400
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:04 +0000
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 21:33 +1200
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 20:31 +0000
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-16 13:35 +1200
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:31 -0400
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:28 -0400
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:16 -0700
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 12:50 -0700
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:29 +0000
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 15:14 -0700
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0700
                            Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:14 +0000
                              Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 19:36 -0700
                                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:58 +0000
                                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0700
                                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:58 +0000
                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 04:01 -0400
                                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:29 -0700
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:34 -0400
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:41 -0400
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:03 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:44 +0000
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:25 -0700
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:03 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:13 +0200
                        Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:06 -0400
                          Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 07:19 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:49 -0600
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 05:51 +0000
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:10 +0200
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:46 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:30 +0000
                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:15 -0600
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 08:03 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-13 08:54 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 14:15 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 09:22 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 13:25 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 15:06 -0400
                  Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 20:38 -0400
                    Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:53 -0400
                      Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 21:47 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:01 +0200
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-15 19:57 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-14 18:17 -0400

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#29480

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2012-08-15 00:44 -0400
Message-ID<502b2928$0$44471$c3e8da3$f017e9df@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#29473
Lewis wrote:

> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.

Based on my understanding, at the unix level, the actual file is fully
overwritten when the document is saved.  a "cat" of the file will show
the new modified contents and the old contets are not available.

So autosave will "corrupt" the file.

Just because some GUI application allows you to reconstitute previous
version of the file from a "versions" database does not detract that the
file itself is fully overwrtten whenever you save or auto-save it.

The problem with auto-save is that
one doesn't know ifhen it decides to mofidy a file  or can't prevent it
from modifying a file you have no intention of modifying.

I can see Apple considering that since there is no "save" function in
transaction/dataase applications such as contacts/calendar, that they
would want to do away with it in document based applciations, but this
is wrong.

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#29482

FromRich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid>
Date2012-08-15 01:04 -0400
Message-ID<a90ou1Fp3gU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#29480
JF Mezei wrote:
> Lewis wrote:
>
>> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
>> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
>> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.
>
> Based on my understanding, at the unix level, the actual file is fully
> overwritten when the document is saved.  a "cat" of the file will show
> the new modified contents and the old contets are not available.

I did this experiment under Lion:  In a terminal window, I cd'd to the 
desktop and created a .txt file using vi.  I exited vi and opened the file 
in TextEdit.  I then simulated the proverbial cat walking across the 
keyboard and quit TextEdit.  It closed without warning.  I re-opened the 
file in vi and the 'cat tracks' were there.

> So autosave will "corrupt" the file.

Indeed.

> Just because some GUI application allows you to reconstitute previous
> version of the file from a "versions" database does not detract that the
> file itself is fully overwrtten whenever you save or auto-save it.

Well, I expect it to be overwritten on a Save. ;)  Auto-save is dangerous.

> The problem with auto-save is that
> one doesn't know ifhen it decides to mofidy a file  or can't prevent it
> from modifying a file you have no intention of modifying.

Right.  The program which can change a file is usually the viewer too. 
"Just looking" is now dangerous.

- Rich

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#29489

FromPaul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch>
Date2012-08-15 15:35 +0200
Message-ID<n6lsf9-do4.ln1@news1.chingola.ch>
In reply to#29482
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 01:04:00 -0400, Rich Gray wrote:

> I did this experiment under Lion:  In a terminal window, I cd'd to the
> desktop and created a .txt file using vi.  I exited vi and opened the
> file in TextEdit.  I then simulated the proverbial cat walking across
> the keyboard and quit TextEdit.  It closed without warning.  I re-opened
> the file in vi and the 'cat tracks' were there.

This takes me back to an editor I used on VMS, which would only write a 
new version of a file if you changed it.  Substitute line noise on a dumb 
terminal for 'cat tracks' or later on with Terminal windows and typing in 
the wrong window and you get the idea.

At least that editor would tell you that it was saving a new version, and 
with the VMS versioning system you knew which file to delete.

-- 
Paul Sture

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#29507

FromBread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net>
Date2012-08-15 10:45 -0700
Message-ID<k0gn7d$3v3$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to#29482
On 2012-08-15 05:04:00 +0000, Rich Gray said:

> JF Mezei wrote:
>> Lewis wrote:
>> 
>>> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
>>> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
>>> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.
>> 
>> Based on my understanding, at the unix level, the actual file is fully
>> overwritten when the document is saved.  a "cat" of the file will show
>> the new modified contents and the old contets are not available.
> 
> I did this experiment under Lion:  In a terminal window, I cd'd to the 
> desktop and created a .txt file using vi.  I exited vi and opened the 
> file in TextEdit.  I then simulated the proverbial cat walking across 
> the keyboard and quit TextEdit.  It closed without warning.  I 
> re-opened the file in vi and the 'cat tracks' were there.

That's precisely what happens.
> 
>> So autosave will "corrupt" the file.
> 
> Indeed.

Correct.  Which is, as I've been saying, why file locking is so 
important.  From the very beginning, I've been saying that autosave and 
versions is still an unfinished idea.  Apple tried to make it 
"interfaceless" and make it "just happen" but version control and such 
automation is simply not that easy.

In more serious revision control systems, there are several variations 
of how to handle locking of files, generally important when more than 
one person may be modifying the same file, but similarly important in 
keeping unintended changes from getting checked in.

In one model, before you may modify a file, you needed to check it out 
and lock it - preventing anyone else from editing the file - before you 
could edit it.

In another model, your copy was always able to be edited to your 
heart's content immediately.

In both cases, your changes would not be checked into the system at all 
until you explicitly checked them in.

Apple wanted to do away with the "you need to check in your changes" 
part - because folks who aren't trained in revision control systems 
wouldn't remember to do their check-ins.

But Apple also went with the lazy system of "you can edit immediately 
without having to check out and lock your copy".  And *I* think that 
was the mistake.  Until you declare "I *am* going to edit this file" 
the file should not be editable.

The old system, before versions, was "you can edit this file 
immediately without having to check it out, but if you forget to save 
your changes, you may be screwed, and by the way, if you edit the file, 
since you've been training yourself to save all the time, you may 
overwrite the file when you didn't mean to, and you won't be able to 
recover the old version unless you are using Time Machine".

Unfortunately, they've muddled it.  As we've demonstrated, (a) 
unintended changes can get saved to a file - dangerously - because they 
get saved even if you never hit "save"; and (b) it's not enough to say 
"okay, then you can go to Versions and get back to what you intended" 
because (i) you shouldn't have to do that; and (ii) because - and 
here's the other dangerous part - the versions database is hidden and 
gets lost without warning if you move the file to another filesystem or 
are using a sync system like Dropbox.

Unless the version history is tightly tied to the file, so that it 
cannot get easily lost, it's *not* enough to say "just go to versions 
and revert".  And even if it were enough, that's not a very reasonable 
solution.  You shouldn't have to go out of your way to recover from 
problems that shouldn't happen anyway.  Accidents (ie. cat walking on 
keyboard) happen.  It's important to make recovery from those accidents 
easy (hance, in theory, being able to roll back a version), but it's 
even more important to minimize the likelihood of those accidents 
happening in the first place (by making it harder to accidently screw 
up your file in the first place).  It's the difference between having 
airbags and avoiding the obstacle in the first place.  Obviously you 
should have airbags.  But even better is not crashing the car in the 
first place, so before you worry about airbages, you make steering 
secure and predictable.

> 
>> Just because some GUI application allows you to reconstitute previous
>> version of the file from a "versions" database does not detract that the
>> file itself is fully overwrtten whenever you save or auto-save it.
> 
> Well, I expect it to be overwritten on a Save. ;)  Auto-save is dangerous.

I agree.  As it was in Lion, in my opinion, it was still "beta" - not a 
fully fleshed out product, and still with signficant flaws.  It should 
be optional, like the "natural" scrolling and the hidden scrollbars.  I 
do not understand why it wasn't optional.  But I do think, overall, 
it's a *great* thing and once they get some of the things we're talking 
about here worked out, it'll be a vast improvement for most people.

It's certainly *not* the catastrophe that people have been painting it.

> 
>> The problem with auto-save is that
>> one doesn't know ifhen it decides to mofidy a file  or can't prevent it
>> from modifying a file you have no intention of modifying.
> 
> Right.  The program which can change a file is usually the viewer too. 
> "Just looking" is now dangerous.

Unless the file is locked.  Which happens automatically after two 
weeks.  It *should* happen a lot sooner than that.  The more I work 
with it, the more I'm convinced of this.

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#29509

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2012-08-15 13:59 -0400
Message-ID<502be395$0$1317$c3e8da3$eb767761@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#29507
Bread wrote:

> Correct.  Which is, as I've been saying, why file locking is so 
> important.  From the very beginning, I've been saying that autosave and 
> versions is still an unfinished idea.  Apple tried to make it 
> "interfaceless" and make it "just happen" but version control and such 
> automation is simply not that easy.

It was not unfinished. Apple tried to do away with the concept of having
to save a document, just like you don't have to save when you make
changes to contacts, calendar and other database applications.

What Apple failed to realise is that people want control over when a
save is made to a document. And people want to be able to manage their
documents as they wish, not the stuff it is doing on IOS with each app
having its own documents. (unable to file all documents for a project in
the same folder for instance since your pictures have to go to the photo
editor, your spreadsheets to te spredsheet editor, your text to the text
editor apps)

This was not unfinished. It was an error in what direction to take.

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#29545

FromWes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org>
Date2012-08-15 23:38 -0400
Message-ID<k0hpva$fkn$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#29507
On 08-15-2012 13:45, Bread wrote:> Unless the version history is tightly 
tied to the file, so that it
 > cannot get easily lost, it's *not* enough to say "just go to versions
 > and revert".  And even if it were enough, that's not a very reasonable
 > solution.  You shouldn't have to go out of your way to recover from
 > problems that shouldn't happen anyway.

Moreover, as pointed out elsewhere, until you actually do that manual 
operation, any person or app that uses the file gets the garbage.

And what if it is a file that actually needs version control and 
therefore already has it?  Do we get entertained by periodic fights 
between subversion and Lion ?

-- 
Wes Groleau

    Trying to be happy is like trying to build a machine for which
    the only specification is that it should run noiselessly.
                               — unknown

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#29555

FromPaul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch>
Date2012-08-16 06:11 +0200
Message-ID<jg8uf9-ev72.ln1@news1.chingola.ch>
In reply to#29507
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:45:17 -0700, Bread wrote:

> Unless the file is locked.  Which happens automatically after two weeks.
> It *should* happen a lot sooner than that.  The more I work with it, the
> more I'm convinced of this.

My gut feeling is that the period should be user settable, but I'll admit 
I haven't put much thought into ways of shooting yourself in the foot 
here.

-- 
Paul Sture

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#29481

FromRich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid>
Date2012-08-15 00:46 -0400
Message-ID<a90nsaFihnU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#29473
Lewis wrote:
> In message <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net>
>    Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>> TextEdit is a perfect example.  It's a Swiss Army knife, which I make quite
>> a bit of use of, but more often than not, as a *viewer*.  One of my most
>> common sins is typing into the wrong window when working in many windows.
>> With Auto Save, this immediately corrupts the original file.
>
> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.

The file is no longer correct.  Corrupted is a reasonable expression for 
invalidated content.  If you don't like it, pick another.  The file is now 
wrong and will be until the error is noticed (perhaps spectacularly) and 
corrected.  The fact that the file is recoverable does not change the fact 
that it has been made wrong.

>> In Lion, I can
>> close the window with no warning given at all.  ML ameliorates this
>> somewhat, if I understand it, by allowing a rollback when one closes the
>> window.  But until the time the file is recovered, it is WRONG.  Not good if
>> it is a running script or some other form of shared document that others
>> might access in the meantime.
>
> Aha! Finally a valid criticism of AutoSave! I would offer that the odds
> of opening a script in Lion that was not 'locked' and accidentally
> making a change that was saved without your knowledge is a pretty slim
> chance, all in all.

As I understand it, Auto Save is always in effect, but versioning only works 
on HFS+ volumes.  I do a lot of stuff on shared, non-HFS+ drives.  Seems 
like there is much opportunity for unrecoverable corr^w inadvertent changes 
if one uses [M]L apps against such shared files.

The NAS that I access does have a Time Machine like capability.  Every 
directory had a hidden .snapshot directory off of it, containing hourly, 
daily & weekly images of files, much as TM does.  Making saves produce a new 
snapshot (instead of time) and throwing a TM style GUI on it would have been 
much more to my liking as a way for OS X to go.

> This would be a good reason to have keep the file locking in 10.8.

It does seem like explicit locking & unlocking (without having to jump 
through Finder hoops) would be good.  But that would probably be too much 
for the simpleton environment Apple is trying to create.  :/  The two week 
auto-lock is strange...  (I can screw up a lot of stuff in that time!! ;)

> I'm not sure how this works in 10.8, but I know that in Script Editor, it does "the right thing".

I'm curious.  What would that be?  If it auto saves, the script is co^w 
wrong until recovered.  Computers are a lot less forgiving than other humans.

Perhaps the problem here is you don't have this kind of situation on an iOS 
device, because you don't share files in this manner.  It's strictly a 
single user environment and files exist only in tight association with their 
apps.  Yet this is the model Apple is pushing into OS X.

>> It is this disregard for the sanctity of originals which I have a huge
>> problem with.  Yes, save versions of explicitly saved/saved
>> as/duplicated/whatever files.  Auto save to a DRAFT file!!
>
> I do prefer how vim manages recovery files, but that would be a terrible
> interface for your average user. The way autosave works in 10.7 and 10.8
> is the way that it should work because that is what is best for the
> non-geek users (most everyone). Us geeks have to be aware of things like
> this and maybe take a couple of steps to prevent these issues.

Another source of inadvertent keystrokes is my brain not switching correctly 
between vi & GUI typing.  I've typed things like [esc]0g into GUI windows 
more times than I care to admit.  ;)

> For myself, I can honestly say that I have never edited a script in
> TextEdit and that the possibility of doing so has never occurred to me.

OK, my example is a little unusual.  (Most often I am using vi. ;) 
Substitute any process that would be accessing a text file at the same time 
one is LOOKING at it with TextEdit.

I don't use Numbers, but what would happen if one were viewing a spreadsheet 
on a shared server and inadvertently changed something?  What would stop 
everyone in the department from getting the wrong data until the file was 
restored??

>> This thread is sort of a rant, me taking an opportunity to express sadness
>> that Apple seems to be making the OS X world be dummy-friendly.  I
>> understand the motive, $$market$$.  I'm just sad about it because I *really*
>> do think my MBP(5,5) is the best computer I've ever owned.  All other
>> laptops look & feel like cheap junk compared to a unibody.  SL is IMHO the
>> best OS, because it wasn't dummified.  Maybe there needs to be one more pref
>> in OS X, to set User Level.
>
> I prefer 10.8 to 10.6, but I prefer 10.6 to 10.7.

Yeah, I wish half my fleet could wasn't stuck going no further than 10.7.  I 
do feel that Apple will probably work this save stuff out eventually, but 
I've got machines which will never get to enjoy that.  :(

Cheers!
Rich

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#29486

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2012-08-15 08:04 +0000
Message-ID<slrnk2mlvs.2cj8.g.kreme@mbp55.local>
In reply to#29481
In message <a90nsaFihnU1@mid.individual.net> 
  Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Lewis wrote:
>> In message <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net>
>> This would be a good reason to have keep the file locking in 10.8.

> It does seem like explicit locking & unlocking (without having to jump 
> through Finder hoops) would be good.

It looks like in 10.8 you can lock a file by simply clicking next to its
name int he title bar of the document and selecting lock.

>>I'm not sure how this works in 10.8, but I know that in Script Editor,
>>it does "the right thing".

> I'm curious.  What would that be?  If it auto saves, the script is co^w 
> wrong until recovered.  Computers are a lot less forgiving than other humans.

No, it autosave and if the current state is invalid, it saves it
separately.

<http://tidbits.com/article/13135>

> Another source of inadvertent keystrokes is my brain not switching correctly 
> between vi & GUI typing.  I've typed things like [esc]0g into GUI windows 
> more times than I care to admit.  ;)

Been there, done that. Perhaps we should make a T-Shirt?


-- 
I'm not old, I'm chronologically challenged.

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#29503

FromMichelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org>
Date2012-08-15 09:24 -0700
Message-ID<michelle-2531F2.09241015082012@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#29486
In article <slrnk2mlvs.2cj8.g.kreme@mbp55.local>,
 Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> It looks like in 10.8 you can lock a file by simply clicking next to its 
> name int he title bar of the document and selecting lock.

In 10.7 too.  You can Lock, Duplicate, Revert to last saved version, or 
Browse all versions.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

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#29508

FromBread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net>
Date2012-08-15 10:52 -0700
Message-ID<k0gnk2$59c$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to#29481
On 2012-08-15 04:46:00 +0000, Rich Gray said:

> Lewis wrote:
>> In message <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net>
>> Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>>> TextEdit is a perfect example.  It's a Swiss Army knife, which I make quite
>>> a bit of use of, but more often than not, as a *viewer*.  One of my most
>>> common sins is typing into the wrong window when working in many windows.
>>> With Auto Save, this immediately corrupts the original file.
>> 
>> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
>> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
>> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.
> 
> The file is no longer correct.  Corrupted is a reasonable expression 
> for invalidated content.

The original, unedited file is not there anymore.  It may be recovered, 
possibly, via Versions, but if you go look at your filesystem, it's not 
there.  There's a new and incorrect file.  "corrupted" is a reasonable 
word for it.

>  If you don't like it, pick another.  The file is now wrong and will be 
> until the error is noticed (perhaps spectacularly) and corrected.  The 
> fact that the file is recoverable does not change the fact that it has 
> been made wrong.

The real danger is that the file may *not* be recoverable.  The 
versions database is stored in an invisible database at the root of 
that filesystem.  If you move the file to another drive, the version 
history is lost and the file before the unintended edits is *not* 
recoverable.

>> This would be a good reason to have keep the file locking in 10.8.
> 
> It does seem like explicit locking & unlocking (without having to jump 
> through Finder hoops) would be good.  But that would probably be too 
> much for the simpleton environment Apple is trying to create.  :/  The 
> two week auto-lock is strange...  (I can screw up a lot of stuff in 
> that time!! ;)

*immediate* auto-locking whenever the file is closed would be a better 
solution.  If you open a file, you need to explicitly say "okay - I 
*do* mean to edit this!" before you are allowed to edit it.  Every 
time.  The assumption shouldn't necessarily be "just because I've 
opened this file, I intend to edit it and save my changes".  Two weeks 
was just some oddball compromise between some folks over at Apple.

Autosave and Versions are a *good* thing.  They're just not quite 
finished.  Locking needs to be improved, and transparency as to what's 
happening needs to be improved, as does the issue of keeping the 
revision database attached to the file, if possible.  It's too easy to 
lose your revision history right now, and it happens without warning or 
hope of recovery.

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#29513

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2012-08-15 14:54 -0400
Message-ID<502bf07f$0$39100$c3e8da3$38634283@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#29508
Bread wrote:

> Autosave and Versions are a *good* thing.  They're just not quite 
> finished. 


Versions is totally separate from autosave.

Autosave for documents is NOT a good thing. I don't mind if on can
enable autosave as a preference for an application.

But it must not become a built-in paradigm that is used by Apple
provided applications but not by the rest of the world.

Versions may help correct the mistake that autosave is by allowing you
to spend the time to recover a previous version of a file assuming the
app uses versions and assuming you know that you mistakenly modified the
file and spend the time to recover the original.

The fact that versions allows you to sometimes recover from the damage
doesn't detract from the fact that autosave causes damage.

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#29514

FromDoug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com>
Date2012-08-15 12:01 -0700
Message-ID<56ehn86kul.fsf@ethel.the.log>
In reply to#29508
Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> writes:

(snip)

> Autosave and Versions are a *good* thing.  They're just not quite
> finished.  Locking needs to be improved, and transparency as to what's
> happening needs to be improved, as does the issue of keeping the
> revision database attached to the file, if possible.  It's too easy to
> lose your revision history right now, and it happens without warning
> or hope of recovery.

Yes, this is where I come down too.  I like the idea that I won't lose
my work if the power fails or if my computer crashes.  But it has to
be combined with the ability to minimize the risk of _accidentally_
changing files, and with the transparency of understanding what has
happened easily.  And I don't think we're there yet.

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#29515

FromJF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>
Date2012-08-15 15:42 -0400
Message-ID<502bfbae$0$1272$c3e8da3$eb767761@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#29514
Doug Anderson wrote:

> Yes, this is where I come down too.  I like the idea that I won't lose
> my work if the power fails or if my computer crashes. 

Serious software do autosafes to a temprary file without changing the
real file. After a power failure, software detects that the temporary
files were left and offers the opportunity to restart the previous
session., using the temp files to re-apply the changes to the real file.

We've had this on VMS for decades, and even software like InDesign/Page
Maker had this for a long time.

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#29519

FromPaul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch>
Date2012-08-15 22:40 +0200
Message-ID<o3etf9-do4.ln1@news1.chingola.ch>
In reply to#29515
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:42:38 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> Doug Anderson wrote:
> 
>> Yes, this is where I come down too.  I like the idea that I won't lose
>> my work if the power fails or if my computer crashes.
> 
> Serious software do autosafes to a temprary file without changing the
> real file. After a power failure, software detects that the temporary
> files were left and offers the opportunity to restart the previous
> session., using the temp files to re-apply the changes to the real file.
> 
> We've had this on VMS for decades, and even software like InDesign/Page
> Maker had this for a long time.

But on VMS with EDIT/TPU they managed to mess it up by going for block 
rather than keystroke journalling.  It didn't always work.

OpenOffice/LibreOffice also have the concept of recovering documents 
after a system crash.

-- 
Paul Sture

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#29547

FromWes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org>
Date2012-08-15 23:43 -0400
Message-ID<k0hq8s$fkn$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#29515
On 08-15-2012 15:42, JF Mezei wrote:
> Doug Anderson wrote:
>> Yes, this is where I come down too.  I like the idea that I won't lose
>> my work if the power fails or if my computer crashes.
>
> Serious software do autosafes to a temprary file without changing the
> real file. After a power failure, software detects that the temporary
> files were left and offers the opportunity to restart the previous
> session., using the temp files to re-apply the changes to the real file.
>
> We've had this on VMS for decades, and even software like InDesign/Page
> Maker had this for a long time.

Even Microsoft Office takes that approach.  (Although in my expereince 
it doesn't work.)

-- 
Wes Groleau

"What progress we are making!  In the Middle Ages, they would have
burnt me; nowadays they are content with burning my books.”
                                     — Sigmund Freud, 1933
"He was never to know that even that was only an illusory progress,
that ten years later they would have burned his body as well.”
                                     — Ernest Jones, 1953

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#29568

FromPaul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch>
Date2012-08-16 09:56 +0200
Message-ID<rlluf9-ev72.ln1@news1.chingola.ch>
In reply to#29481
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 00:46:00 -0400, Rich Gray wrote:

> Another source of inadvertent keystrokes is my brain not switching
> correctly between vi & GUI typing.  I've typed things like [esc]0g into
> GUI windows more times than I care to admit.

One that still gets me is typing :q into a GUI, thus changing it.

When I first started with OS X, VMS was my full time job, and getting out 
of the habit of exiting editors with CTRL-Z took some time.

-- 
Paul Sture

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#29538

FromWes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org>
Date2012-08-15 22:57 -0400
Message-ID<k0hnid$60s$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#29473
On 08-14-2012 23:14, Lewis wrote:
> I prefer 10.8 to 10.6, but I prefer 10.6 to 10.7.

I can say the same, but ONLY from reading about it.

I consider 10.7 a big step backward, but not big enough to go through 
the hassle of rebuilding my 10.6.

Where Lion (from my point of view) broke a few things and offered 
_nothing_ I wanted to compensate, 10.8 sounds like it does offer me a 
few things AND almost fixes the things 10.7 broke.

So I am going to install it--but I'm keeping a bootable clone of 10.7 
just in case.

-- 
Wes Groleau

Expert, n.:
         Someone who comes from out of town and shows slides.

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#29541

FromLewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
Date2012-08-16 03:28 +0000
Message-ID<slrnk2oq6d.2j99.g.kreme@mbp55.local>
In reply to#29538
In message <k0hnid$60s$1@dont-email.me> 
  Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:
> On 08-14-2012 23:14, Lewis wrote:
>> I prefer 10.8 to 10.6, but I prefer 10.6 to 10.7.

> I can say the same, but ONLY from reading about it.

> I consider 10.7 a big step backward, but not big enough to go through 
> the hassle of rebuilding my 10.6.

I wouldn't go that far. There are issues with 10.7, and some things that
annoyed me (the way the scroll bars work in Lion is a lot worse than in
Mountain Lion).

> So I am going to install it--but I'm keeping a bootable clone of 10.7 
> just in case.

When I get on my 10.7 machine I find something that annoys me that was
fixed in 10.8 (like the Address Book/Contacts which I completely despise
in 10.7).

-- 
"There's nothin' wrong with bein' a son of a bitch." -- Gaspode the
Wonder Dog

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#29539

FromWes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org>
Date2012-08-15 23:01 -0400
Message-ID<k0hnq9$7fq$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#29473
On 08-14-2012 23:14, Lewis wrote:
>    Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>> TextEdit is a perfect example.  It's a Swiss Army knife, which I make quite
>> a bit of use of, but more often than not, as a *viewer*.  One of my most
>> common sins is typing into the wrong window when working in many windows.
>> With Auto Save, this immediately corrupts the original file.
>
> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.

Think again.

If it is part of a website, something is certainly corrupted.

If it is a script run by cron, something is certainly corrupted.

If it is a launchd item, something is certainly corrupted.

Even the most passionate lover of autosave can think of other examples.

-- 
Wes Groleau

Expert, n.:
         Someone who comes from out of town and shows slides.

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