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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #32709
| From | Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.java.programmer |
| Subject | Re: questions re Javascript |
| Date | 2015-09-25 17:13 -0400 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <mu4dde$ls4$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (8 earlier) <mu3afq$sn3$1@dont-email.me> <mu3b4k$anl$1@dont-email.me> <mu3uiu$fq4$1@dont-email.me> <mu42a2$8rl$1@dont-email.me> <mu493n$4ur$1@dont-email.me> |
On 09/25/2015 03:59 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 14:03:55 -0400, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>
>> On 09/25/2015 01:00 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:30:22 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 25/09/2015 12:17, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 20:55:59 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Again - let's see you build the hardware. Then maybe we can discuss
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Its already been done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_processor
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, just find a Jazelle chip or Javelin device and use that. Parallax
>>>>> sold the Javelin. Physically they were very similar to their BS2
>>>>> STAMP.
>>>>> However, they did that quite a while back, so it will be Java 1 or 2
>>>>> at the most.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's an interesting discussion in this reference: http://
>>>>> www.jopdesign.com/doc/jhal.pdf I just skimmed it, but it looks as
>>>>> though they've had at least one HW implementation running.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, what does seeing a hardware implementation have to do
>>>>> with a thread about clarifying natural language definitions and their
>>>>> associated semantics?
>>>>
>>>> Splutter !!!
>>>>
>>>> You bought it up in the first place Martin. and you haven't yet
>>>> answered the quastion about how your byte code gets translated into
>>>> binary numbers ... how does that happen ?
>>>>
>>> How do you work that out? I did explicitly NOT make a distinction
>>> between bytecode compilers and machine code compilers: indeed GCJ can
>>> generate both. Pretty much at the start of all this, I said two things:
>>>
>>> 1) that you can define a high-level 'compiled language' as one where
>>> a program, usually known as a 'compiler', must be used to translate
>>> the human readable source code into something more computer
>>> friendly before it can be run and that an interpreted language does
>>> not have an explicit compilation step.
>>>
>>> 2) that compilers or assemblers that can directly generate executable
>>> code without the aid of a linker are rare in my experience and that
>>> I knew three cases (6800 assemblers, PL/9 and Elliott 503 Algol) of
>>> compiled languages that don't use a linker in the sense of a
>>> post-processor for compiler output.
>>>
>>> I should have included Java in this list since it too lacks an
>>> explicit linkage stage that must be completed before attempting to
>>> run the compiled code: my mistake. I suppose any system that can
>>> run relocatable binary code can let the runtime loader handle
>>> fixing up inter-module links. The JVM's loader does this and IIRC
>>> so do the loaders used by IBM's OS/400 and ICL's VME/B
>>>
>>> I have always heard the phrase 'interpreted languages' used to describe
>>> the case where source code is apparently executed directly without any
>>> explicit compilation stage. Examples are Perl, awk and command-line
>>> interpreters, e.g. bash or command.exe
>>>
>>>
>> There are a dozen or so products described by their suppliers as C
>> interpreters. Does this mean that C is an interpreted language?
>>
> The common C versions (K&R C, ANSI C and its derivative, C++) are
> definitely compiled languages using a complex, multi-phase compiler.
> 'cc' itself is just a shell to run the appropriate compilation phases in
> the required order:
> - preprocessor (a macrogenerator: it expands macro definitions,
> and #defines, uses #ifdef statements to control what
> parts of the source files are fed to the compiler
> - assembly language generator (translates C source to the native
> assembler)
> - optimiser (applies the requested optimisations (inlining code,
> unrolling loops etc)
> - assembler
> - linker
>
> How much of this you're aware of during a compilation depends on the
> actual compiler. For instance:
>
> - GNU C looks and acts like a single unitary slab most of the time
>
> - Microware K&R C compiler for OS-9 showed all the phases as they
> were run.
>
> - most Unices, which include Linux and BSD, also have the 'ar' tool,
> which is used to build code libraries, and 'make', which does much
> the same job as 'ant'.
>
> Other OSen have equivalent tools.
>
> However, there is an interpreted language, Tiny C, which is purely
> interpreted. It dates from the time when an Intel 8080 was considered a
> desirable mpu. Tiny C was really an IDE, being a combined
> editor,compiler,interpreter - in short, very similar to a traditional
> BASIC.
>
> Tiny C claimed to be a very small (integer) subset of C, but in fact
> doesn't look a lot like it. Here's 'hello World' in tiny C:
>
> hello-world [
> pl "Hello, world"
> ]
>
> and here's the equivalent in ANSI C:
>
> /* HELLO.C - compiler test piece */
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main(int argc, char **argv)
> {
> printf("Hello, C world\n");
> return(0);
> }
>
>> That these products are not really C language products?
>>
> Does Tiny C look anything like the product you were thinking of?
Well if it will not interpret the C language then no.
The first hit for c+interpreter was
"Ch is a C/C++ interpreter and scripting language environment"
<https://www.softintegration.com/>
Which promises: from a command shell on several operating systems
Ch supports all features in the ISO C standard called C90 which was ratified
in 1990.
#include <stdio.h>
int main() {
printf("Hello, world\n");
return 0;
}
The output is: Hello, world
>
>> That somehow behind the scenes these products are really C
>> language compilers masquerading as C interpreters?
>>
> I would say not, though of course people can and do use Eclipse for C
> development, which would make it all look a lot different from the way I
> develop C. But then, I develop C using a traditional multi-buffered
> editor (microEmacs) plus make, GNU C ar and cvs for version control. I
> run the lot from two or three console windows and command lines.
>
>> Something else? Does it make sense to
>> declare a language as only either a compiled language or an interpreted
>> language?
>>
> I think mostly yes, if only because interpreted languages tend to be much
> terser and use untyped variables both of which make them easier and
> quicker to enter and edit.
I guess that it might make sense as a matter of convenience.
I suppose I am most put-off by such absolute statements as
Java is a compiled language.
Java is an interpreted language.
Clearly one could produce a compiler that outputs an executable
ELF, COFF or whatever.
And a you pointed out there have been working examples of
systems on a chip that would run bytecode from a Jave bytecode
compiler.
Java language source code interpreted line by line?
Not so sure of that, but Java 9 promises an REPL.
Interpretation of HLL code line by line by some shell is a definition of
interpretation? Some others in this thread have stated their definition
of interpretation as the output of Javac running in a JVM.
>
>> Are there any programming languages that one strictly cannot
>> compile or interpret?
>>
> Don't know. Strongly typed languages may be a pain to interpret line by
> line as they're entered (think JOSS or Forth here) simply because you'll
> probably have to enter the whole program and enter 'RUN' before type
> mismatches etc get found and reported.
>
> I have a feeling that the ones that claim to be both will be organised
> rather like traditional BASIC or Python, i.e. a combination of editor/IDE,
> P-code compiler and interpreter. If you run these in interactive mode
> they just a source editor until you enter the RUN command to cause a
> compile-and-go. If the compile is successful, the program is run and
> after it ends or fails you're back in the editor. If you run it as a
> command (basic myprog.bas) then it will read in the file, do a command-
> and-go and return errors and/or results to the console.
>
>> Somehow it makes more sense to me to say that a
>> particular programming language is usually compiled to some form of
>> native machine language, or is more usually interpreted by some virtual
>> machine running on a native machine. I'm by far no C expert but I do
>> seem to recall a C standard somehow referring to a virtual machine.
>>
> Agreed. Those that work both ways are fairly rare, especially if they
> aren't IDE-like. Sorry to keep dragging up old systems, but about the
> only ones, apart from various BASICs and JOSS, that worked this way that
> I know about were the command processors for ICL's VME/B and IBM's
> OS/400 operating systems. Both worked similarly and both used strongly
> typed command languages, so error detection was excellent:
>
> - If you typed in a command it ran it and prompted for another
>
> - if you entered the command name and hit a special key, you got a
> fullscreen prompt showing command names and boxes alongside each to
> fill in. Default values were shown and could be overtyped.
> Hitting ENTER ran the completed command.
>
> - if you started an editor and used it to write a command script,
> you set up a header with argument names, types and defaults, typed
> in the commands, loops and conditionals etc and closed the file.
>
> Under OS/400 you compiled it by running CRTCLPGM and fixed errors
> like any other program before you could run your new command.
> CRTCLPGM looks horrid but is a shortened form of "Create Command
> Language Program" but is easier to remember than you'd expect. Yes,
> CRTCPGM was the C compiler and CRTPLIPGM was the PL/I compiler.
>
> Under VME/B you simply issued the filename as a command, which tried
> a compile-and-go. If it compiled, it would run. If not, you fixed
> errors and tried again.
>
> Under both OS/400 and VME/B your new command worked just like a built-in
> one: you could run it from a command line, cause it to do a full screen
> prompt for arguments, or call it from another command file.
>
>
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questions re Javascript rdelaney2001@gmail.com - 2015-09-01 15:26 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-01 23:26 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 10:00 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript e.d.programmer@gmail.com - 2015-09-02 05:32 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-03 20:17 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript e.d.programmer@gmail.com - 2015-09-04 05:33 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 22:42 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-01 20:00 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 20:40 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2015-09-23 16:10 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-24 10:40 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-24 11:21 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-24 20:10 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2015-09-24 13:18 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 19:40 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-25 01:15 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 22:25 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 03:46 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-25 09:59 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 15:32 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 13:02 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-02 16:24 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-02 23:02 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 13:30 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2015-10-04 21:31 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-10-05 07:48 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 20:53 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-03 10:46 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 21:00 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-05 21:19 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 22:26 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 15:32 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-09-24 16:58 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-24 21:45 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-24 18:27 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 19:53 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 22:03 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 22:34 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 22:46 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-25 09:56 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-09-25 10:15 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-25 11:44 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-09-25 14:09 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-25 15:15 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-27 20:45 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-27 22:48 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-28 03:29 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-28 00:02 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-28 11:33 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-28 10:44 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-27 20:42 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-27 22:51 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-27 20:38 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-27 22:59 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-02 22:47 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-03 10:48 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-02 22:53 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-03 10:52 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 21:03 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-05 21:25 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 21:41 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-05 22:11 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 22:19 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-05 22:27 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-24 22:30 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 22:42 -0400
Re: Aho, A. V., & Ullman, J. D. (1972). The theory of parsing, translation, and compiling. Englewood Cliffs, N.J: Prentice-Hall. Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-24 23:26 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 23:07 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-24 23:55 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-27 20:46 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript e.d.programmer@gmail.com - 2015-09-25 05:20 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-27 20:54 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-27 23:05 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-02 22:36 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-03 10:57 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-10-05 21:10 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-10-05 21:27 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-27 23:19 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 03:46 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 23:35 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2015-09-24 13:10 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 19:55 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-25 00:48 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 20:55 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-25 11:17 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 12:30 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-25 17:00 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-25 14:03 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-25 14:14 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-25 19:59 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-25 17:13 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-25 22:15 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 13:07 -0700
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 16:48 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-25 10:02 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-09-25 17:32 +0000
Re: questions re Javascript Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 03:45 +0100
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-25 10:13 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 21:58 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 22:34 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-24 22:35 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 22:51 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-09-24 23:00 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-09-25 10:17 -0400
Re: questions re Javascript Tim Slattery <tim@risingdove.com> - 2015-09-24 12:04 -0400
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