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Re: Forth for education

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From Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Forth for education
Date Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:47:02 +0100
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On 19/09/2013 02:10, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:08:00 -0400, Gerry Jackson
> <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 18/09/2013 14:41, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 03:57:19 -0400, Andrew Haley
>>> <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Don't you think four decades of conversation on what's the best
>>> way to implement control-flow in Forth is enough?  When it's not how
>>> to implement control-flow, it's how to use DOES> ...  Etc., Forth is
>>> cryptic, Forth has no syntax.
>>
>> Nonsense. Of course Forth has some syntax, [...]
>
> Forth has no official syntax.  It has some defacto syntax.

Again nonsense but taking that at face value - if it has "de facto 
syntax" then it has syntax so your original statement is wrong. See also 
para 3.4.1.2 in the ANS Forth document.

Anyway what do you mean by "official syntax"? Presumably the fact that 
there is no section defining a Forth grammar in BNF or some other 
notation. That's because it's not needed and would probably be 
difficulty to write if it included all possibilities and restrictions to 
incorporate Forth's flexibility. But you're wrong again e.g. see the ANS 
Forth document 12.3.7 where the syntax for a floating point number is 
defined using a form of BNF.

>
> E.g., brackets [ ] to distinguish compile-time and run-time
> versions of the same Forth word.  : (colon) and ; (semis)
> could also be viewed as syntax since they separate much
> of an immediate stream of executing words from words that
> are being compiled.  Etc.

As Elizabeth says : and ; don't have a syntax. However a colon 
definition does and could be defined (in outline) as:

<colon-definition> ::= : <name> (   <word-sequence>
                                   | <control-structure>
                                   | <executable-code>
                                   | ... etc
                                 )*
                        ;
where the definition of <executable-code> would be defined using [ and ]

and before you ask "where does it say that?", it's an ad hoc 
formalisation of descriptions spread around the standard document in 
word definitions and other text.

>
[...]
>> At the grammar level control structures such as IF ... ELSE ...
>> THEN clearly form part of Forth's syntax -
>
> Not so.
>
>> if there is no terminating THEN, the structure is wrong.
>
> Really? Says who or what?
>
> Which standard or document do you think requires that?
>
> Hint:
>
> fig-Forth doesn't say that.
> F-79 doesn't say that.
> F-83 doesn't say that.
> ANS doesn't say that either.

Elizabeth answered that.

> However, there is no constraint in the stack parameters for any of
> them that would actually require a Forth implementor to only allow
> THEN to be used with an IF or ELSE.  THEN can function correctly
> as long as the stack parameters are valid.  E.g., I could define
> the "WADADABOOP" control-flow to work correctly with and be
> terminated by THEN.  If someone implements THEN to require a matching
> IF , they've added additional functionality not required, perhaps
> for safety.  I.e., if so, then they've created syntax, but it's not
> officially required.

You're waffling. The point is that Forth enables the users to define 
their own syntax and that includes overriding the default Forth syntax 
itself.

>
>> If all control structures, colon definitions, variable definitions
>> etc are considered there is quite a bit of syntax.
>
> Of course, that's not official syntax, but, yes, that is a trivial
> amount of defacto syntax.

You're admitting that Forth does have syntax contrary to your original 
assertion.

>
>> The conclusion is that Forth has a *lot* of syntax and so the
>> statement "Forth has no syntax" is a load of bollocks.
>
> I think you're confusing and conflating much.

I think arguing with you is like arguing with a religious bigot - a 
total waste of time.

-- 
Gerry

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Thread

Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-09 05:16 -0700
  Re: Forth for education Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-09-09 14:59 +0200
  Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-10 04:30 -0400
    Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-10 08:00 -1000
      Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-10 21:32 -0700
        Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-11 06:22 -0400
          Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-11 11:52 +0100
            Re: Forth for education Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-09-11 14:40 +0200
            Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-12 08:10 -0400
              Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-12 14:20 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-14 22:47 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-14 17:47 -1000
                Re: Forth for education stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-09-15 17:17 +0000
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-15 18:52 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-15 08:11 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-15 19:49 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-15 09:11 -1000
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-15 20:38 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-17 17:21 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-09-17 18:01 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-17 14:31 -1000
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 22:20 -0700
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 22:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-09-18 21:56 +0200
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-18 02:57 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 09:41 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-18 15:35 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 21:02 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-18 15:42 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 15:48 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-20 11:26 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 20:35 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-19 13:45 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:18 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 14:06 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 17:08 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-20 12:00 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 20:10 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-20 23:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 13:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-23 01:55 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 11:40 -0500
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-23 17:45 +0000
                Re: Forth for education anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-23 18:47 +0000
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-24 17:00 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 14:51 -0500
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-24 16:50 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-24 12:02 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-21 05:21 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 14:15 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-21 08:52 -1000
                Re: Forth for education Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-21 14:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-22 04:53 -0500
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-22 19:00 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2013-09-22 21:22 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-23 08:13 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 04:25 -0400
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-24 21:38 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-09-23 12:07 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 11:50 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:58 -0400
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 09:32 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-27 19:35 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-28 01:08 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-28 01:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:21 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-25 04:00 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-09-25 09:26 -0700
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-25 15:14 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 07:51 -0400
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-26 23:36 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 14:40 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-21 04:46 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-18 11:41 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 22:08 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 21:10 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-18 16:20 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:39 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 12:47 +0100
                Re: Forth for education Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-09-19 11:30 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 16:48 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:51 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 23:17 +0100
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:19 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:31 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-18 21:12 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 01:02 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:26 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 17:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-19 11:28 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-18 18:30 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-19 22:51 +0000
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 14:06 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 19:56 -0700
              Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-12 08:03 -1000
          Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-11 08:59 -1000
            Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-12 10:48 +0000
              Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-12 08:17 -0500
        Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-13 12:48 +0000
          Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-13 06:33 -0700
          Re: Forth for education m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-09-13 07:25 -0700
          Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-13 21:20 -0700
          Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-15 09:04 +0000
            Re: Forth for education mhx@iae.nl - 2013-09-15 02:57 -0700
        Forth is not interactive "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-20 03:32 +0000
          Re: Forth is not interactive rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 01:20 -0400
          Re: Forth is not interactive Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 23:41 -0700
            Re: Forth is not interactive "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-19 21:45 -1000
              Re: Forth is not interactive "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 04:09 -0400
                Re: Forth is not interactive "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-19 22:21 -1000
                WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 10:55 +0100
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 06:17 -0700
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 13:19 -0400
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 19:45 +0100
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 14:53 -0400
              Re: Forth is not interactive Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 01:20 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 02:35 -0700
            Re: Forth is not interactive Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 02:39 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive mhx@iae.nl - 2013-09-21 04:05 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-21 12:43 +0000
    Re: Forth for education stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-09-12 14:04 +0000
    Re: Forth for education "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-09-15 18:00 +1000
  Re: Forth for education voidvolker@gmail.com - 2013-09-14 10:41 -0700
    Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-14 10:53 -1000
  Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-19 22:33 +0000
    Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-19 17:17 -0700
      Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 17:44 -0400
        Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 23:58 +0100
          Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 19:49 -0400
            Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-21 20:33 +0100
              Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:49 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-25 09:42 +0100
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 09:39 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 10:40 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-26 08:51 -1000
        Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 22:50 -0400
          Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 14:27 -0400
            Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:33 -0400
              Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:37 -0400
        Re: Forth for education Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-09-21 10:02 +0100

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