Re: Forth for education

From	"Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Forth for education
Date	2013-09-25 03:21 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
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On Sun, 22 Sep 2013 05:53:38 -0400, Andrew Haley  
<andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:

> Rod Pemberton <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Sep 2013 06:21:30 -0400, Andrew Haley
>> <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>> Rod Pemberton <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> wrote:
...

>> Discussing problems leads to the truth, solutions to solve those
>> problems, and understanding of those problems by those who wouldn't
>> otherwise.
>
> *Constructively* discussing problems leads to the truth.
>
> This:
>
> "Forth is an unstructured programming language.  I.e., without
> conscious application of structured coding principles, of which many
> programmers are completely unaware, it results in 'spaghetti code',
> just like the code most programmers created for BASIC."
>
> ... is not constructive.

That's clearly your perception...

Discussion of truth must start somewhere.
Stating the truth is a good place to start.

> No serious poster would have said this.

I was 100% serious or I never would've posted it.

> It was intended only to irritate.

That's your perception.

> "Forth is cryptic, Forth has no syntax" is not constructive.
> It's just stupid.
>

Insult.  You lost.

Although, I wasn't trying to win.  I was just stating the truth.

How is a space, the only defined syntax, syntax?  So, I brought
up de facto syntax, which everyone here argues doesn't exist either...
If neither exist, how is it stupid and non-constructive to say so?
That makes no sense.

>> You can't fix things or if you're hiding in a dark locked closet.
>> You can't avoid things like metaphorical landmines if you don't know
>> where to *not* step.
>
> Indeed not.  But your complaints about Forth are not constructive
> because they do not lead anywhere.

They never lead anywhere because no one is willing to discuss them.
They've been brought up repeatedly.

> If you have something specific to say, then we can talk about it.

Specific issues have been brought up numerous times in the past.
A few were mentioned earlier in the thread, which you still
apparently haven't bothered to read to familiarize yourself...

> But your complaints are so broad and shallow that there's nothing
> to be done.

Yes, there is.  A change of attitudes is required.  Otherwise,
the specific issues will never be discussed.

>> All these things and more have been posted here, repeatedly,
>> over the years.  Where were you?
>
> Here, as you full well know.  And while you might have had
> constructive reasons to be here before, you don't now.

And, you do?  It's been a year since you've actually discussed Forth.

> You've managed to hack together a Forth implementation, that's true.

Same as you.  You haven't used your Forth for anything either.
At least, you haven't stated so here, if you have.  With your
ego, it's unlikely you wouldn't have, if you had.  So, how are
you any different in these regards?

>>>> I think a bunch of you have yet to come to grips with the fact that
>>>> you're hypocrites.  Everyone here cites the problems with Forth that
>>>> I mentioned, but whenever anyone attempts to discuss them they get
>>>> trashed and blamed.
>>>
>>> That is not true.
>>
>> It is true.  This has been happening for years, over numerous
>> threads and conversations.  Certain topics are "taboo", or
>> perhaps "hated" is a better word...
>
> "Pointless" is the word I would choose.
>

"Blah, blah", "too broad", "pointless", "not detailed" enough...

The point remains that certain Forth topics are not being discussed
openly in a group that claims to be about Forth.

>>> That was incorrect,
>>
>> It was correct, just as I explained it.
>>
>>> and Elizabeth cited the section of ANS Forth that said they
>>> must be correctly paired.
>>
>> It doesn't say that.  Please feel free to explain where exactly
>> you think it does.  I already explained my understanding.
>> Neither one of you has explained yours.
>
> The trouble with this is that this isn't a credible question,

Where did I ask a question?  I don't see a question mark above.

> [...] given what you've been told.

What was that exactly?  Context is being lost.

> Elizabeth even quoted chapter and verse, and
> you still didn't get it.

As stated previously, Ms. Rather didn't explain anything.
She quoted a section of text.

I explained something.  I explained my understanding.

> How much more can anyone do?

Explain it.  Don't quote it.  Prove your claim.

> You went on to say
>
>> The requirement is "semantics are incomplete until orig is resolved"
>> not what resolves it.
>
> So, what can resolve an IF?  A word that resolves an orig.  What words
> are those?  The control structures that match.
>

Yes.  Unfortunately, those don't have to be ANS defined words as cited
in my example with which Ms. Rather agreed wholeheartedly.

I'm just curious, did going around and around in circles ever get you
anywhere in life?

>>>>> If you try Forth and don't like it, fine. Cool. Use a language you
>>>>> prefer. What we find annoying is folks who have to hang around
>>>>> telling us how awful Forth is, for no apparent reason.
>>>>
>>>> So, then, you, Alex, Hugh, Bernd, Gerry, rickman, Andrew etc should
>>>> all leave.  You're all guilty of it.
>>>
>>> No, we're not.  We have not hung around in Language X newsgroup
>>> telling people how awful Language X is.  That would be pointless
>>> and stupid.
>>
>> Yes, you are.  You've all cited concrete examples of Forth's
>> weaknesses over the years.
>
> That's not the same as telling people how awful Forth is.
>

Citing concrete examples of Forth's weaknesses is not the same as
telling people how awful Forth is?  ...

1) How exactly do you differentiate between citing weakness and
ascribing awfulness?  Well, first we must define "awfulness" in
the context of a programming language.  It's a personification.
But, language weakness could be a good definition for it...

2) I don't recall telling people how awful Forth is, however you
define "awful" in this context.  Having only coded my system in Forth,
I'm not sure exactly how I was telling people that Forth is awful.
It's clearly illogical to believe I could've stated such with such
limited experience coding in Forth, yes?  ...  I do recall telling
people how C is excellent in many ways and sometimes demonstrating
that.  Those are clearly not the same, unless you have problems
differentiating...  The other option is to believe I have more
experience from implementing an interpreter in C and Forth than
you realized, then it wouldn't be illogical, but that would also
make my statements about Forth's weaknesses true.  That's something
you seem to have difficulty accepting.

Rod Pemberton

Thread

Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-09 05:16 -0700
  Re: Forth for education Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-09-09 14:59 +0200
  Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-10 04:30 -0400
    Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-10 08:00 -1000
      Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-10 21:32 -0700
        Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-11 06:22 -0400
          Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-11 11:52 +0100
            Re: Forth for education Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-09-11 14:40 +0200
            Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-12 08:10 -0400
              Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-12 14:20 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-14 22:47 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-14 17:47 -1000
                Re: Forth for education stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-09-15 17:17 +0000
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-15 18:52 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-15 08:11 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-15 19:49 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-15 09:11 -1000
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-15 20:38 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-17 17:21 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-09-17 18:01 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-17 14:31 -1000
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 22:20 -0700
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 22:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-09-18 21:56 +0200
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-18 02:57 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 09:41 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-18 15:35 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 21:02 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-18 15:42 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 15:48 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-20 11:26 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 20:35 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-19 13:45 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:18 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 14:06 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 17:08 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-20 12:00 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 20:10 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-20 23:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 13:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-23 01:55 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 11:40 -0500
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-23 17:45 +0000
                Re: Forth for education anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-23 18:47 +0000
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-24 17:00 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 14:51 -0500
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-24 16:50 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-24 12:02 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-21 05:21 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 14:15 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-21 08:52 -1000
                Re: Forth for education Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-21 14:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-22 04:53 -0500
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-22 19:00 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2013-09-22 21:22 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-23 08:13 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 04:25 -0400
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-24 21:38 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-09-23 12:07 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 11:50 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:58 -0400
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 09:32 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-27 19:35 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-28 01:08 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-28 01:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:21 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-25 04:00 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-09-25 09:26 -0700
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-25 15:14 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 07:51 -0400
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-26 23:36 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 14:40 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-21 04:46 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-18 11:41 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 22:08 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 21:10 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-18 16:20 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:39 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 12:47 +0100
                Re: Forth for education Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-09-19 11:30 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 16:48 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:51 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 23:17 +0100
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:19 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:31 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-18 21:12 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 01:02 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:26 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 17:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-19 11:28 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-18 18:30 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-19 22:51 +0000
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 14:06 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 19:56 -0700
              Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-12 08:03 -1000
          Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-11 08:59 -1000
            Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-12 10:48 +0000
              Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-12 08:17 -0500
        Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-13 12:48 +0000
          Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-13 06:33 -0700
          Re: Forth for education m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-09-13 07:25 -0700
          Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-13 21:20 -0700
          Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-15 09:04 +0000
            Re: Forth for education mhx@iae.nl - 2013-09-15 02:57 -0700
        Forth is not interactive "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-20 03:32 +0000
          Re: Forth is not interactive rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 01:20 -0400
          Re: Forth is not interactive Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 23:41 -0700
            Re: Forth is not interactive "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-19 21:45 -1000
              Re: Forth is not interactive "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 04:09 -0400
                Re: Forth is not interactive "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-19 22:21 -1000
                WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 10:55 +0100
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 06:17 -0700
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 13:19 -0400
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 19:45 +0100
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 14:53 -0400
              Re: Forth is not interactive Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 01:20 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 02:35 -0700
            Re: Forth is not interactive Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 02:39 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive mhx@iae.nl - 2013-09-21 04:05 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-21 12:43 +0000
    Re: Forth for education stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-09-12 14:04 +0000
    Re: Forth for education "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-09-15 18:00 +1000
  Re: Forth for education voidvolker@gmail.com - 2013-09-14 10:41 -0700
    Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-14 10:53 -1000
  Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-19 22:33 +0000
    Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-19 17:17 -0700
      Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 17:44 -0400
        Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 23:58 +0100
          Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 19:49 -0400
            Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-21 20:33 +0100
              Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:49 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-25 09:42 +0100
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 09:39 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 10:40 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-26 08:51 -1000
        Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 22:50 -0400
          Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 14:27 -0400
            Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:33 -0400
              Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:37 -0400
        Re: Forth for education Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-09-21 10:02 +0100

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