Re: Forth for education

From	Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Forth for education
Date	2013-09-18 22:08 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<l1d4na$7dn$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
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On 18/09/2013 14:41, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 03:57:19 -0400, Andrew Haley
> <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Rod Pemberton <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> wrote:
>
>>> Sigh, here we go again...
>>>
>>> Every time I mention lack of syntax or language structure in Forth,
>>> I get ripped.  A short while later someone who programs in Forth
>>> cites the exact issue by example.  This time it happened to be Hugh.
>>> Are you guys doing this intentionally or just for "fun"?  Can you
>>> truly be so blissfully unaware of the issue that you don't realize
>>> it even when you explicitly complain about it?
>>
>> How can you say we're unaware of it?  We know Forth very well.  The
>> argument is whether the lack of, say, syntax is a bug or a feature.
>>
>
> If it's frequently complained about, wouldn't that make it a bug?
>
> If it's easy to misuse, wouldn't that make it a source of bugs?
>
>> And of course you get ripped.  Your idea of a good way to [spend] your
>> time is to come to a Forth newsgroup and tell everyone how crap Forth
>> is.  What did you expect?
>>
>
> Don't you think four decades of conversation on what's the best
> way to implement control-flow in Forth is enough?  When it's not how
> to implement control-flow, it's how to use DOES> ...  Etc., Forth is
> cryptic, Forth has no syntax.

Nonsense. Of course Forth has some syntax, if there were no syntax how 
could a Forth interpreter make any sense of a Forth program.

According to Wikipedia:

<quote>Computer language syntax is generally distinguished into three 
levels:
     Words – the lexical level, determining how characters form tokens;
     Phrases – the grammar level, narrowly speaking, determining how
               tokens form phrases;
     Context – determining what objects or variables names refer to, if
               types are valid, etc.</quote>

At the lexical level Forth clearly has a simple syntax, "a parsed 
sequence of non-space characters ..."

At the grammar level control structures such as IF ... ELSE ... THEN 
clearly form part of Forth's syntax - if there is no terminating THEN, 
the structure is wrong. If all control structures, colon definitions, 
variable definitions etc are considered there is quite a bit of syntax.

At the context level a word name can be defined differently in each of 
several wordlists, the actual word referred to depends on the search 
order at the time of interpretation or compilation.

A syntax can be defined using regular expressions and/or in a BNF 
grammar. It is trivial to write a regex defining a Forth word. Control 
structures can easily be expressed in BNF.

If such words as CS-PICK and CS-ROLL are included in a Forth BNF grammar 
they greatly complicate the syntax and its BNF representation. 
Furthermore the many restrictions such as use of the return stack with 
DO LOOPs and Locals etc form part of Forth's syntax.

The conclusion is that Forth has a *lot* of syntax and so the statement 
"Forth has no syntax" is a load of bollocks.

-- 
Gerry

Thread

Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-09 05:16 -0700
  Re: Forth for education Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-09-09 14:59 +0200
  Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-10 04:30 -0400
    Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-10 08:00 -1000
      Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-10 21:32 -0700
        Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-11 06:22 -0400
          Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-11 11:52 +0100
            Re: Forth for education Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-09-11 14:40 +0200
            Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-12 08:10 -0400
              Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-12 14:20 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-14 22:47 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-14 17:47 -1000
                Re: Forth for education stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-09-15 17:17 +0000
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-15 18:52 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-15 08:11 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-15 19:49 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-15 09:11 -1000
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-15 20:38 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-17 17:21 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-09-17 18:01 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-17 14:31 -1000
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 22:20 -0700
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-17 22:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-09-18 21:56 +0200
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-18 02:57 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 09:41 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-18 15:35 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 21:02 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-18 15:42 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 15:48 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-20 11:26 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 20:35 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-19 13:45 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:18 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 14:06 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 17:08 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-20 12:00 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 20:10 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-20 23:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 13:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-23 01:55 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 11:40 -0500
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-23 17:45 +0000
                Re: Forth for education anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-23 18:47 +0000
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-24 17:00 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 14:51 -0500
                Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-24 16:50 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-24 12:02 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-21 05:21 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 14:15 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-21 08:52 -1000
                Re: Forth for education Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-21 14:23 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-22 04:53 -0500
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-22 19:00 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2013-09-22 21:22 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-23 08:13 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 04:25 -0400
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-24 21:38 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2013-09-23 12:07 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-23 11:50 -0500
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:58 -0400
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 09:32 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-27 19:35 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-28 01:08 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-28 01:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:21 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-25 04:00 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-09-25 09:26 -0700
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-25 15:14 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 07:51 -0400
                Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-26 23:36 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 14:40 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-21 04:46 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-18 11:41 -0500
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-18 22:08 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-18 21:10 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-18 16:20 -1000
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:39 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 12:47 +0100
                Re: Forth for education Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-09-19 11:30 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 16:48 +0100
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 16:51 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 23:17 +0100
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:19 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:31 -0400
                Re: Forth for education hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-09-18 21:12 -0700
                Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-19 01:02 -0700
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:26 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 17:09 -0400
                Re: Forth for education anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-09-19 11:28 +0000
                Re: Forth for education Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-18 18:30 -0700
                Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-19 22:51 +0000
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 14:06 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 19:56 -0700
              Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-12 08:03 -1000
          Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-11 08:59 -1000
            Re: Forth for education albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-12 10:48 +0000
              Re: Forth for education Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-09-12 08:17 -0500
        Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-13 12:48 +0000
          Re: Forth for education Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-13 06:33 -0700
          Re: Forth for education m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-09-13 07:25 -0700
          Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-13 21:20 -0700
          Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-15 09:04 +0000
            Re: Forth for education mhx@iae.nl - 2013-09-15 02:57 -0700
        Forth is not interactive "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-20 03:32 +0000
          Re: Forth is not interactive rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 01:20 -0400
          Re: Forth is not interactive Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 23:41 -0700
            Re: Forth is not interactive "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-19 21:45 -1000
              Re: Forth is not interactive "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 04:09 -0400
                Re: Forth is not interactive "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-19 22:21 -1000
                WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 10:55 +0100
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 06:17 -0700
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 13:19 -0400
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 19:45 +0100
                Re: WJ, aka William James [was Re: Forth is not interactive] rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 14:53 -0400
              Re: Forth is not interactive Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 01:20 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 02:35 -0700
            Re: Forth is not interactive Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-09-20 02:39 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive mhx@iae.nl - 2013-09-21 04:05 -0700
          Re: Forth is not interactive albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-09-21 12:43 +0000
    Re: Forth for education stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-09-12 14:04 +0000
    Re: Forth for education "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-09-15 18:00 +1000
  Re: Forth for education voidvolker@gmail.com - 2013-09-14 10:41 -0700
    Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-14 10:53 -1000
  Re: Forth for education "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-19 22:33 +0000
    Re: Forth for education visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-09-19 17:17 -0700
      Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 17:44 -0400
        Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-20 23:58 +0100
          Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-20 19:49 -0400
            Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-21 20:33 +0100
              Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:49 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-09-25 09:42 +0100
                Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 09:39 -0400
                Re: Forth for education Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-09-26 10:40 -0400
                Re: Forth for education "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-26 08:51 -1000
        Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-20 22:50 -0400
          Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-21 14:27 -0400
            Re: Forth for education rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-21 15:33 -0400
              Re: Forth for education "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-09-25 03:37 -0400
        Re: Forth for education Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-09-21 10:02 +0100

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