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Groups > alt.comp.software.thunderbird > #345

OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text)

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 09:15:30, Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote 
(my responses usually follow points raised):
>On 4/26/2021 5:39 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
>
>> On 4/26/21 5:49 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> This message, as you trimmed it and I replied to it, fits on a 
>>>single  screen.
>>  What I'm replying to would fit in a (new) tweet.
>
>
>I'll believe you. I have no interest in Twitter, have never used it, 
>and know next to nothing about it.
>
Twitter is odd; it will be different for every user, depending on who 
they "follow". (And which subjects, if they follow those.)
>
>> IMHO, Tweets aren't in and of themselves sufficient for actual honest to
>> $DEITY communications.
>
>
>I'll believe that too.
>
It's actually quite a good discipline for those of us who tend to be 
verbose (-:. But yes, it can be limiting.
[] (denotes "[lines snipped here]")
>>> Would it be worse if if my reply was top-posted?
>>  Definitely. >
>>> Maybe slightly worse, but it wouldn't be a big deal to me.
>
>
>> More than slightly.
>
>
>We disagree. See my point below.
>
I agree with whichever of you (I forget which) said that top-posting is 
bad, but tolerable if the whole Q&A can be seen in one window (not 
screen; I don't read full-screen).

Special case - Brian Gaff (the talking sofa): we tolerate his 
top-posting because we know he's blind. (I do wish he wouldn't use a 
proper sig-separator though.)
>
>
>> You're using English, so I'm going to assume that it's familiar to you.
>> As such, you are probably also familiar with the top to bottom flow of
>> normal English writing.
>
>
>And all (almost all?) other languages.
>
Interesting ponder: do languages that go in different directions (e. g. 
right-to-left as in Hebrew, or vertically as in some of the oriental 
languages) have this top/bottom/inter posting debate?
[]
>We agree. Of course it shouldn't. My point is simply that if someone 
>asks me a question like
>
>              How old are you?
>
>and I reply
>
>              83.
>
>              > How old are you?
>
>even though it's illogical and wrong, it's *very* easy to read and 
>understand the reply.
>
>Contrast that with
>
>              83
>
>              two screens full of quoted material ending with
>
>              > How old are you?
>
>
>*That* is very hard to read and understand the reply without scrolling 
>all the way to end and then perhaps back up to reread the reply (unless 
>you remember the question from whenever it was asked (which I seldom do).

Well put. (As for whoever suggested repeating the question in the 
answer, fine, but why should anyone have to?)
>
>That's the reason why in my opinion, sufficient trimming is often more 
>important than whether someone top posts or bottom posts
>
Thoroughly agree.

>
>> Once you get beyond a certain length of email or discussion, there is a
>> sequence of multiple points.  And it's quite common to give participants
>> the opportunity to respond to various points during the course of a
>> longer discussion.  I view interspersing point with counter points to be
>> the same way.  This is typically referred to in-line style.
>>  I strongly prefer in-line style.
>
Me too - with trimming. As for "the reader should not be obliged to go 
back and read other posts to get the full context" as an argument 
_against_ trimming: I take the point, but disagree where drift (or 
evolution, to give a less negative word) has occurred. For example, I 
don't think this discussion of posting style - which it has now become - 
would benefit from the section on playing 78RPM records (which is how 
uk.tech.broadcast became added in the first place, as there are several 
there - one in particular - who are knowledgeable about and interested 
in that, there) was still included.

Trimming is an art; you can trim too much or too little. Too little is 
far commoner, IMO.
>
>As do I, as you can see from my reply here.
>
>Once again, my only point is that regardless of what you and I prefer, 
>for simple replies to simple points that have been trimmed to fit on a 
>single screen, it's not as important as it it sometime is in other cases.

Agreed (though I think we'd all prefer chronological too [possibly even 
Brian if there was enough trimming]).
>
>And despite what some people say, as far as I'm concerned, that goes 
>for e-mail as well as usenet posts. Top-posting is not a good way to do

Agreed!

>it. It's as illogical and wrong in e-mail as it is is usenet. Even 
>worse are those people who reply to e-mail (or usenet posts) without 
>quoting anything; it may work for them if they read very few messages 
>each day, but it doesn't work for me, since I read many and can almost

Indeed! My reaction is usually "you what?", "what are you on about?", or 
similar. (Twitter has a tendency to do this: I sometimes see tweets that 
say "You're right there, especially where bacon is involved", and 
however much I try, I can't find the tweet they're responding to. 
[Though whichever of you doesn't use it, don't let that put you off 
Twitter. It can be enjoyable.])
[]
>> Aside:  I view "but my client does $THIS automaticaly" comments to be an
>> excuse at best.  Also, the size and popularity of the institution that
>> creates a tool to do something does not speak to it's properness, rather
>> simply nods to it's likely probability.
>
>
>
>I completely agree. If a program doesn't put the reply cursor where you 
>want it, either switch to a different program or get into the habit of 
>moving the cursor to where you want it.
>
>However, note that no program can put the cursor wherever you want it 
>for inline posting.

Well ...

I like to _think_ that software that put the cursor at the top did it to 
encourage snipping-and-inline-posting. Unfortunately, this happened 
about the time usage (of news and email) was spreading sufficiently fast 
(1980s perhaps?) that people took to it without being shown by others 
what was good practice, so never learnt about snipping-and-inline - they 
just assumed, since the cursor was placed at the top by the software, 
that their entire reply should go there.

Of course, some software developers then sealed the fate by also putting 
the .sig above the quoted text. That was the end.
>
>By the way, I might be wrong, but I think it was Microsoft that in its 
>programs (Outlook and Outlook Express) started the habit of 
>top-posting--something that many other programs copied and many people 
>also copied, thinking that since their program puts the cursor there, 
>that was the *correct* way to do it.

They certainly were among the offenders, and they certainly were the 
ones who misplaced the .sig .

(I remember there were some clients - possibly even including O/OE - 
which had a setting, so you could choose where the cursor appeared when 
you started a reply/followup. But I fear it mostly defaulted to top - 
though possibly with good intentions as I've described above.)

There were also clients that wouldn't let you post if the percentage of 
new text was less than some amount (-:
>
>Another by the way: every now and then I write to some come company, 
>either asking a question or making a request, and their reply often 
>contains a note warning me that if I don't don't top-post when replying 
>to their reply, my message will be ignored. That always pisses me off, 
>but I do as they say, since I wouldn't have written if I didn't think 
>it was important.
>
Yes, I've seen those. Like one of the followups says, I sometimes copy 
their entire text from below the obvious separator line, so I can answer 
their questions in my usual manner.
>
-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm a self-made man, thereby demonstrating once again the perils of unskilled
labor..." - Harlan Ellison

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Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-25 09:28 +0100
  Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text MB <MB@nospam.net> - 2021-04-25 10:11 +0100
    Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Jim S <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> - 2021-04-25 10:25 +0100
      Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-25 10:47 +0100
        Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text MB <MB@nospam.net> - 2021-04-25 11:04 +0100
          Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Chris Youlden <fbx@youlden.co.uk> - 2021-04-25 12:13 +0100
            Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-25 12:27 +0100
              Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Chris Youlden <fbx@youlden.co.uk> - 2021-04-26 12:33 +0100
  Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2021-04-26 09:11 +0100
    Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-26 09:19 +0100
    Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-26 07:55 -0700
      Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text MB <MB@nospam.net> - 2021-04-26 17:11 +0100
        Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-04-26 16:47 +0000
        Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-26 10:45 -0700
          Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Marc Auslander <marcausl@gmail.com> - 2021-04-26 14:04 -0400
          Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-04-26 18:20 +0000
            Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-26 11:44 -0700
              Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-26 16:02 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-26 16:49 -0700
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-26 18:39 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-27 09:15 -0700
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-27 12:26 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-28 08:20 -0700
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-28 10:37 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Laurence Taylor <laurence@nospam.plus.com> - 2021-04-28 21:40 +0100
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text MB <MB@nospam.net> - 2021-04-28 22:01 +0100
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> - 2021-04-29 09:19 +0100
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Miguel Tomar Nogueira <mnogueira@mail.telepac.pt> - 2021-04-28 02:29 +0000
                OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2021-04-28 16:14 +0100
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-28 08:42 -0700
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2021-04-28 17:42 +0100
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-28 10:07 -0700
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2021-04-28 18:37 +0100
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) Dave <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2021-04-28 16:59 +0100
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-28 10:45 -0600
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2021-04-28 17:50 +0100
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-28 10:57 -0600
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style (was: Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text) "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2021-04-28 18:10 +0100
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style Richmond <richmond@criptext.com> - 2021-04-28 20:33 +0100
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-28 14:31 -0600
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2021-04-28 13:38 -0700
                Re: OT: posting/emailing style Richmond <richmond@criptext.com> - 2021-04-28 21:35 +0100
              Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> - 2021-04-26 23:29 +0100
            Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-26 16:01 -0600
          Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> - 2021-04-26 23:28 +0100
            Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-26 16:57 -0700
              Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-26 18:56 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-27 09:32 -0700
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-27 10:59 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-27 10:26 -0700
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-27 12:28 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-28 08:23 -0700
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-28 10:50 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-28 10:51 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-28 10:15 -0700
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-04-28 11:48 -0600
                Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-28 10:58 -0700
      Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-04-26 20:00 +0100
        Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> - 2021-04-26 12:25 -0700
          Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-26 16:26 -0500
      Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Miguel Tomar Nogueira <mnogueira@mail.telepac.pt> - 2021-04-27 05:07 +0000
    Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Bill H <bhtemp99@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2021-04-26 09:06 -0700
    Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-26 15:54 -0500
      Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text Chris Youlden <fbx@youlden.co.uk> - 2021-04-26 22:58 +0100
        Re: Thunderbird - disabling display of quoted text VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2021-04-26 17:55 -0500

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