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Turning off the Log-in Password

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  Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-01-25 22:57 +1100
    Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-01-25 12:31 +0000
      Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Herbert Kleebauer <klee@unibwm.de> - 2025-01-25 14:35 +0100
      Re: Turning off the Log-in Password "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-25 14:43 +0100
        Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-01-26 22:57 +1100
          Re: Turning off the Log-in Password T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2025-01-26 05:06 -0800
            Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-01-28 23:39 +1100
              Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-28 13:48 +0000
                Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-02-01 22:26 +1100
                  Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-02-01 11:40 +0000
                  Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-01 16:10 +0000
                    Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-02-01 17:44 +0000
      Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-01-26 23:01 +1100
        Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-26 14:54 +0000
          Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Herbert Kleebauer <klee@unibwm.de> - 2025-01-26 17:55 +0100
            Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-26 18:19 +0000
              Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-01-26 18:33 +0000
                Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-26 19:46 +0000
                  Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-26 20:11 +0000
                  Re: Turning off the Log-in Password "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-26 23:04 +0100
                    Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-27 11:16 +0000
                      Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-27 13:15 -0500
                        Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-27 18:49 +0000
                          Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-27 14:33 -0500
                      Re: Turning off the Log-in Password wasbit <wasbit@nowhere.com> - 2025-01-28 09:59 +0000
          Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-01-29 00:04 +1100
            Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-28 14:33 +0000
              Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-28 18:59 -0500
                Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-29 11:06 +0000
                  Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-29 06:24 -0500
                    Re: Turning off the Log-in Password "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-29 12:35 +0100
                      Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-29 13:17 +0000
                        Re: Turning off the Log-in Password "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-29 14:38 +0100
                          Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-29 15:29 +0000
                          Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-29 13:59 -0500
                            Re: Turning off the Log-in Password "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-02-01 14:59 +0100
                    Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-29 13:12 +0000
              Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-02-01 22:58 +1100
                Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-02-01 16:21 +0000
                  Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-02-02 22:10 +1100
    Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-25 14:44 +0000
    Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-01-29 11:51 -0500
      Re: Turning off the Log-in Password Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-02-02 22:20 +1100

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

#16566

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-26 20:46, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> >> Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>
> >>> Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Just hold down the <SHIFT> key while you click on
> >>>> the restart button in the start menu of Windows. Then
> >>>> you will get the boot menu on next startup.
> >>>
> >>>     Well, on my laptop, that gets into the *UEFI* software, *not* into the
> >>> *BIOS*.
> >>
> >> If you have a UEFI, that's instead of a BIOS.
> > 
> >    No, one has UEFI *and* BIOS. But you've put me/us on the right path.
> > Read on.
> 
> Nono. There is only UEFI. Forget the name "BIOS". Even if it looks like 
> the BIOS, croaks like the BIOS, walks like the BIOS, it is no longer 
> BIOS, it is part of the UEFI.

[You probably hadn't read my "Correction:" with my further
clarification.]

  As I said in the part you snipped, the (firmware of the) *computer*
(in this case an HP Pavilion 15-eh2560nd laptop) *says* "BIOS" in the
relevant menus. And, to add insult to injury, when the firmware was
(forcefully) updated, the screen said:

  "(hp)				HP BIOS Update

	The System BIOS is being updated. The update will take a few
	minutes to complete.

	Do not shut down your computer during the process. [In red.]

	Writing new BIOS image

	Block NNN / 256

			Progress: NN% [blue on light-grey progress bar]"

  So just on this one screen, it said "BIOS" three times.

  Also the support page says "BIOS-System Firmware" and only talks about
"BIOS" and doesn't even mention UEFI.

<https://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/hp-pavilion-15-laptop-pc-15-eh2000/model/2101006263?sku=693B1EA>

  Probably the term "BIOS" is used, because that's a known term, much
more known than "UEFI". And if we want to be pedantic, even the term
"BIOS" was/is wrong, because it's much more than the Basic Input Output
System part.

  So, let's put all silly semantics aside and let's settle on 'the BIOS
part of the UEFI'. Agreed?

[Paul, what is your take on this?]

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#16576

On Mon, 1/27/2025 6:16 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2025-01-26 20:46, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just hold down the <SHIFT> key while you click on
>>>>>> the restart button in the start menu of Windows. Then
>>>>>> you will get the boot menu on next startup.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Well, on my laptop, that gets into the *UEFI* software, *not* into the
>>>>> *BIOS*.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a UEFI, that's instead of a BIOS.
>>>
>>>    No, one has UEFI *and* BIOS. But you've put me/us on the right path.
>>> Read on.
>>
>> Nono. There is only UEFI. Forget the name "BIOS". Even if it looks like 
>> the BIOS, croaks like the BIOS, walks like the BIOS, it is no longer 
>> BIOS, it is part of the UEFI.
> 
> [You probably hadn't read my "Correction:" with my further
> clarification.]
> 
>   As I said in the part you snipped, the (firmware of the) *computer*
> (in this case an HP Pavilion 15-eh2560nd laptop) *says* "BIOS" in the
> relevant menus. And, to add insult to injury, when the firmware was
> (forcefully) updated, the screen said:
> 
>   "(hp)				HP BIOS Update
> 
> 	The System BIOS is being updated. The update will take a few
> 	minutes to complete.
> 
> 	Do not shut down your computer during the process. [In red.]
> 
> 	Writing new BIOS image
> 
> 	Block NNN / 256
> 
> 			Progress: NN% [blue on light-grey progress bar]"
> 
>   So just on this one screen, it said "BIOS" three times.
> 
>   Also the support page says "BIOS-System Firmware" and only talks about
> "BIOS" and doesn't even mention UEFI.
> 
> <https://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/hp-pavilion-15-laptop-pc-15-eh2000/model/2101006263?sku=693B1EA>
> 
>   Probably the term "BIOS" is used, because that's a known term, much
> more known than "UEFI". And if we want to be pedantic, even the term
> "BIOS" was/is wrong, because it's much more than the Basic Input Output
> System part.
> 
>   So, let's put all silly semantics aside and let's settle on 'the BIOS
> part of the UEFI'. Agreed?
> 
> [Paul, what is your take on this?]
> 

It's quite common for the word BIOS to be used on support
pages, at least as far as "flashing" recipes are concerned.

The objective is to "reassure" the uncertain user, that
they are "doing a good thing". This is why they use familiar
terminology, rather than technically correct terminology. If
they used the word "UEFI" a lot, the user would say
"Gee, I should get out of here, this doesn't sound right".
That would be my instinctive reaction.

I expect the wrong terminology will disappear in a year or two,
as the Intel "UEFI-only" mandate takes effect. It should already
be here, that all BIOS-like features are gone (no CSM, no dual
mode graphics support) and the machines now are well and truly
UEFI only. Only Secure Boot should be a setting to turn on or off.
That's the only variable left. And the machine will arrive with
Secure Boot on.

Setup problems are destined to get a lot worse, when some
of these companies don't set up UEFI properly, and the user
has no good options to work around the mess. For example, Microsoft
revoked a certificate, and what ships on a new machine ? Was it
updated properly at the factory, or not ? Some of the Windows Update
materials, it was the wrong way to deliver things, as the machine
can get out of sync with the Microsoft story board for their "fixes".

If I have to choose between "Flashing a BIOS" and "Flashing a UEFI",
depending on the person I'm talking to, I am more likely to use
the first phrase, just because people may have actually done
one of the first items, but zero of the second items. User
for the last twenty five years, on home-built computers,
have seen that section in the back pages of the user manual.
It's a tough choice to make, because the first phrase is similar
to saying "Kleenex" when you mean "a tissue for blowing your nose".
For better or worse, Kleenex has entered the lexicon, and
"No Name Tissue" from my grocer is a non-starter when describing
a process.

So far, I have flashed three or four UEFI here, in the last two
years, just for bug fixes and security. I would never have said
that back in the BIOS era. I've had motherboards where the BIOS
never got flashed, because the machine started OK and it didn't
need any more adjustment by the manufacturer.

   Paul

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#16577

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 1/27/2025 6:16 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[...]

[On 'BIOS' and/versus 'UEFI':]

> > [Paul, what is your take on this?]
> 
> It's quite common for the word BIOS to be used on support
> pages, at least as far as "flashing" recipes are concerned.
> 
> The objective is to "reassure" the uncertain user, that
> they are "doing a good thing". This is why they use familiar
> terminology, rather than technically correct terminology. If
> they used the word "UEFI" a lot, the user would say
> "Gee, I should get out of here, this doesn't sound right".
> That would be my instinctive reaction.

  Thanks for sharing your views. BTW, do your 'UEFI' machines also
partly use the term 'BIOS' in their menus, like my HP does?

> I expect the wrong terminology will disappear in a year or two,
> as the Intel "UEFI-only" mandate takes effect. It should already
> be here, that all BIOS-like features are gone (no CSM, no dual
> mode graphics support) and the machines now are well and truly
> UEFI only. Only Secure Boot should be a setting to turn on or off.
> That's the only variable left. And the machine will arrive with
> Secure Boot on.

  Aren't there much more 'BIOS' settings which have to migrate to UEFI?
  
  Besides the usual ones, like time, date, boot options, administrator
password, power-on password, etc, my 'BIOS Setup Utility' for example
has TPM settings, virtualization, fan, charging/battery settings,
keyboard, fingerprint, dock, etc., etc..

[...]

> If I have to choose between "Flashing a BIOS" and "Flashing a UEFI",
> depending on the person I'm talking to, I am more likely to use
> the first phrase, just because people may have actually done
> one of the first items, but zero of the second items. User
> for the last twenty five years, on home-built computers,
> have seen that section in the back pages of the user manual.
> It's a tough choice to make, because the first phrase is similar
> to saying "Kleenex" when you mean "a tissue for blowing your nose".
> For better or worse, Kleenex has entered the lexicon, and
> "No Name Tissue" from my grocer is a non-starter when describing
> a process.
> 
> So far, I have flashed three or four UEFI here, in the last two
> years, just for bug fixes and security. I would never have said
> that back in the BIOS era. I've had motherboards where the BIOS
> never got flashed, because the machine started OK and it didn't
> need any more adjustment by the manufacturer.

  Same here. None of our laptops, about six or seven, got flashed,
except this last Windows 11 one, which got a 'forced' flash as part of a
Windows Update cycle.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#16579

On Mon, 1/27/2025 1:49 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 1/27/2025 6:16 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> [...]
> 
> [On 'BIOS' and/versus 'UEFI':]
> 
>>> [Paul, what is your take on this?]
>>
>> It's quite common for the word BIOS to be used on support
>> pages, at least as far as "flashing" recipes are concerned.
>>
>> The objective is to "reassure" the uncertain user, that
>> they are "doing a good thing". This is why they use familiar
>> terminology, rather than technically correct terminology. If
>> they used the word "UEFI" a lot, the user would say
>> "Gee, I should get out of here, this doesn't sound right".
>> That would be my instinctive reaction.
> 
>   Thanks for sharing your views. BTW, do your 'UEFI' machines also
> partly use the term 'BIOS' in their menus, like my HP does?
> 
>> I expect the wrong terminology will disappear in a year or two,
>> as the Intel "UEFI-only" mandate takes effect. It should already
>> be here, that all BIOS-like features are gone (no CSM, no dual
>> mode graphics support) and the machines now are well and truly
>> UEFI only. Only Secure Boot should be a setting to turn on or off.
>> That's the only variable left. And the machine will arrive with
>> Secure Boot on.
> 
>   Aren't there much more 'BIOS' settings which have to migrate to UEFI?
>   
>   Besides the usual ones, like time, date, boot options, administrator
> password, power-on password, etc, my 'BIOS Setup Utility' for example
> has TPM settings, virtualization, fan, charging/battery settings,
> keyboard, fingerprint, dock, etc., etc..
> 
> [...]
> 
>> If I have to choose between "Flashing a BIOS" and "Flashing a UEFI",
>> depending on the person I'm talking to, I am more likely to use
>> the first phrase, just because people may have actually done
>> one of the first items, but zero of the second items. User
>> for the last twenty five years, on home-built computers,
>> have seen that section in the back pages of the user manual.
>> It's a tough choice to make, because the first phrase is similar
>> to saying "Kleenex" when you mean "a tissue for blowing your nose".
>> For better or worse, Kleenex has entered the lexicon, and
>> "No Name Tissue" from my grocer is a non-starter when describing
>> a process.
>>
>> So far, I have flashed three or four UEFI here, in the last two
>> years, just for bug fixes and security. I would never have said
>> that back in the BIOS era. I've had motherboards where the BIOS
>> never got flashed, because the machine started OK and it didn't
>> need any more adjustment by the manufacturer.
> 
>   Same here. None of our laptops, about six or seven, got flashed,
> except this last Windows 11 one, which got a 'forced' flash as part of a
> Windows Update cycle.
> 

The Asus ROG Strix motherboard screen after you press <Del> says:

   UEFI BIOS Utility - Advanced Mode

   BIOS Information

      BIOS Version

      Build Date

      AGESA Version     <=== Processor-related firmware

      LED EC1 version   <=== makes RGB LED animation

so it's pretty funny in fact. All bases have been covered.

   Paul

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#16591

On 27/01/2025 11:16, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2025-01-26 20:46, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just hold down the <SHIFT> key while you click on
>>>>>> the restart button in the start menu of Windows. Then
>>>>>> you will get the boot menu on next startup.
>>>>>
>>>>>      Well, on my laptop, that gets into the *UEFI* software, *not* into the
>>>>> *BIOS*.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a UEFI, that's instead of a BIOS.
>>>
>>>     No, one has UEFI *and* BIOS. But you've put me/us on the right path.
>>> Read on.
>>
>> Nono. There is only UEFI. Forget the name "BIOS". Even if it looks like
>> the BIOS, croaks like the BIOS, walks like the BIOS, it is no longer
>> BIOS, it is part of the UEFI.
> 
> [You probably hadn't read my "Correction:" with my further
> clarification.]
> 
>    As I said in the part you snipped, the (firmware of the) *computer*
> (in this case an HP Pavilion 15-eh2560nd laptop) *says* "BIOS" in the
> relevant menus. And, to add insult to injury, when the firmware was
> (forcefully) updated, the screen said:
> 
>    "(hp)				HP BIOS Update
> 
> 	The System BIOS is being updated. The update will take a few
> 	minutes to complete.
> 
> 	Do not shut down your computer during the process. [In red.]
> 
> 	Writing new BIOS image
> 
> 	Block NNN / 256
> 
> 			Progress: NN% [blue on light-grey progress bar]"
> 
>    So just on this one screen, it said "BIOS" three times.
> 
>    Also the support page says "BIOS-System Firmware" and only talks about
> "BIOS" and doesn't even mention UEFI.
> 
> <https://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/hp-pavilion-15-laptop-pc-15-eh2000/model/2101006263?sku=693B1EA>
> 
>    Probably the term "BIOS" is used, because that's a known term, much
> more known than "UEFI". And if we want to be pedantic, even the term
> "BIOS" was/is wrong, because it's much more than the Basic Input Output
> System part.
> 
>    So, let's put all silly semantics aside and let's settle on 'the BIOS
> part of the UEFI'. Agreed?
> 
> [Paul, what is your take on this?]
> 

The problem is three manufacturers can call the same thing by three 
different names & only those that work with computers/mobile phones etc 
are likely to know that they are the same.
Then along come the home users who start arguing the differences.


-- 
Regards
wasbit

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#16595

On 27/01/2025 1:54 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> On my old HP (the laptop that died), when it started up there was a
>> couple of seconds 'splash screen' which included the message "Press
>> <ESC> to enter System".
>>
>> Maybe I'll just press <ESC> and see what happens next time!!
> 
>    As I said in my earlier response, you want/need to get into the
> 'hardware' *BIOS*. The OS, i.e. now Windows 11, does not have anything
> to do with it.
> 
>    What *is* relevant, as I mentioned, is the brand/model or/and
> motherboard of your new desktop computer.

O.K., there was exactly ZERO paperwork with the Computer, however, 
reading the labels on the Box is it a "HP 23.8 inch All-in-One Desktop 
PC" which, further down the label seems to indicate it is a cr002a or 
cr0002a PC or something similar (Small print, failing eyesight/glasses!!)

>    FYI, I also have HP laptops and indeed for *those*, the 'secret' key
> is the 'esc' key, but for other brands, it can/will be different.

As I mentioned elsewhere, my Laptop was also a HP .. 6730b model.

And, on this Desktop computer, I did press 'ESC' as it was booting .... 
to no avail.

>    So what *is* the brand/model or/and motherboard of the new desktop
> computer? Don't keep us in suspense!
> 
I am trying to provide the relevant information .... when I have access 
to it. ;-)
-- 
Daniel70

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#16599

Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> On 27/01/2025 1:54 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> > [...]
> > 
> >> On my old HP (the laptop that died), when it started up there was a
> >> couple of seconds 'splash screen' which included the message "Press
> >> <ESC> to enter System".
> >>
> >> Maybe I'll just press <ESC> and see what happens next time!!
> > 
> >    As I said in my earlier response, you want/need to get into the
> > 'hardware' *BIOS*. The OS, i.e. now Windows 11, does not have anything
> > to do with it.
> > 
> >    What *is* relevant, as I mentioned, is the brand/model or/and
> > motherboard of your new desktop computer.
> 
> O.K., there was exactly ZERO paperwork with the Computer, however, 
> reading the labels on the Box is it a "HP 23.8 inch All-in-One Desktop 
> PC" which, further down the label seems to indicate it is a cr002a or 
> cr0002a PC or something similar (Small print, failing eyesight/glasses!!)

  Run the 'System Information' utility. On the main page, righthand
side, note the 'System Model' and the 'System SKU'. The 'System Model'
is the product range, which gives a rough indication. The 'System SKU'
is the HP product number, i.e. the number one specifies when ordering
this particular computer. You can use this number in the Support section
of the HP website: <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer> -> "Identify
your computer for manuals and specific product information".

> >    FYI, I also have HP laptops and indeed for *those*, the 'secret' key
> > is the 'esc' key, but for other brands, it can/will be different.
> 
> As I mentioned elsewhere, my Laptop was also a HP .. 6730b model.
> 
> And, on this Desktop computer, I did press 'ESC' as it was booting .... 
> to no avail.

  Perhaps the timing window is (too) small. Try repeated presses/releases
of the 'esc' key. If that does not work, press and hold the 'esc' key
before/while you switch the computer on. AFAIK, for any somewhat modern
HP computer, the 'esc' key should work.

  Alternatively, use the shift+Restart->UEFI->BIOS detour, which Herbert
mentioned and Andy and I further discussed. However that one is not
trivial, so try the normal 'esc'-key way first.

> >    So what *is* the brand/model or/and motherboard of the new desktop
> > computer? Don't keep us in suspense!
> > 
> I am trying to provide the relevant information .... when I have access 
> to it. ;-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#16606

On Tue, 1/28/2025 9:33 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2025 1:54 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> On my old HP (the laptop that died), when it started up there was a
>>>> couple of seconds 'splash screen' which included the message "Press
>>>> <ESC> to enter System".
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I'll just press <ESC> and see what happens next time!!
>>>
>>>    As I said in my earlier response, you want/need to get into the
>>> 'hardware' *BIOS*. The OS, i.e. now Windows 11, does not have anything
>>> to do with it.
>>>
>>>    What *is* relevant, as I mentioned, is the brand/model or/and
>>> motherboard of your new desktop computer.
>>
>> O.K., there was exactly ZERO paperwork with the Computer, however, 
>> reading the labels on the Box is it a "HP 23.8 inch All-in-One Desktop 
>> PC" which, further down the label seems to indicate it is a cr002a or 
>> cr0002a PC or something similar (Small print, failing eyesight/glasses!!)
> 
>   Run the 'System Information' utility. On the main page, righthand
> side, note the 'System Model' and the 'System SKU'. The 'System Model'
> is the product range, which gives a rough indication. The 'System SKU'
> is the HP product number, i.e. the number one specifies when ordering
> this particular computer. You can use this number in the Support section
> of the HP website: <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer> -> "Identify
> your computer for manuals and specific product information".
> 
>>>    FYI, I also have HP laptops and indeed for *those*, the 'secret' key
>>> is the 'esc' key, but for other brands, it can/will be different.
>>
>> As I mentioned elsewhere, my Laptop was also a HP .. 6730b model.
>>
>> And, on this Desktop computer, I did press 'ESC' as it was booting .... 
>> to no avail.
> 
>   Perhaps the timing window is (too) small. Try repeated presses/releases
> of the 'esc' key. If that does not work, press and hold the 'esc' key
> before/while you switch the computer on. AFAIK, for any somewhat modern
> HP computer, the 'esc' key should work.
> 
>   Alternatively, use the shift+Restart->UEFI->BIOS detour, which Herbert
> mentioned and Andy and I further discussed. However that one is not
> trivial, so try the normal 'esc'-key way first.
> 
>>>    So what *is* the brand/model or/and motherboard of the new desktop
>>> computer? Don't keep us in suspense!
>>>
>> I am trying to provide the relevant information .... when I have access 
>> to it. ;-)

The CR0002A.

   https://www.hp.com/au-en/shop/hp-all-in-one-24-cr0002a-pc-911k7pa.html

There does not seem to be a user manual.

And I couldn't find much of anything via Googling.

Hammering <esc> key gets a startup menu, and the menu has Fn keys listed.

The promo picture on this 24 inch all in one,
shows F9 as Boot Device Options (Popup Boot) and
     F10 as BIOS Setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1hud6rG-P0

The video is funny, in that the first roll of the Youtube
video is showing us a Secure Boot violation in a red window.
The machine is already off to a good start. That red screen would
be an example of something that SnippingTool cannot capture
(because the OS isn't running yet).

   Paul

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#16609

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 1/28/2025 9:33 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[My advice how to identify the computer and how to boot it.]

> The CR0002A.
> 
>    https://www.hp.com/au-en/shop/hp-all-in-one-24-cr0002a-pc-911k7pa.html
> 
> There does not seem to be a user manual.

  Of course there is a user manual, but in the Support (Duh!) section:

<https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer>

  There apparently are three models, refurbished 24", 24" and 27".

  Example for the 24" model, the User Guide is here:

<https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/setup-user-guides/hp-all-in-one-desktop-pc-24-cr0000i/model/2101581949?sku=911K7PA>

  Direct link:

<https://kaas.hpcloud.hp.com/pdf-public/pdf_3941897_en-US-1.pdf>

  And indeed, page 45 says "quickly press esc".

[...]

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#16610

On Wed, 1/29/2025 6:06 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 1/28/2025 9:33 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> 
> [My advice how to identify the computer and how to boot it.]
> 
>> The CR0002A.
>>
>>    https://www.hp.com/au-en/shop/hp-all-in-one-24-cr0002a-pc-911k7pa.html
>>
>> There does not seem to be a user manual.
> 
>   Of course there is a user manual, but in the Support (Duh!) section:
> 
> <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer>
> 
>   There apparently are three models, refurbished 24", 24" and 27".
> 
>   Example for the 24" model, the User Guide is here:
> 
> <https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/setup-user-guides/hp-all-in-one-desktop-pc-24-cr0000i/model/2101581949?sku=911K7PA>
> 
>   Direct link:
> 
> <https://kaas.hpcloud.hp.com/pdf-public/pdf_3941897_en-US-1.pdf>
> 
>   And indeed, page 45 says "quickly press esc".
> 
> [...]
> 

I clicked a "drivers/manual" link and was taken to a place
with only drivers. I also tried a Google search for
a manual, from the outside, and didn't get anything.

Going for a Youtube, got me a procedure for a four year old
machine instead. So at least I can see the basic idea
offered on this class of machine.

Even when manuals are offered which are easy to get (Asus),
the BIOS pictures can be missing sections that you happen
to need. Not many manuals are exhaustive. They sometimes
split the manual in two pieces, the main manual being
the setup of the equipment, and the BIOS pdf is "generic"
and the same manual applies to half a dozen models.
That's how I can have a motherboard with no TPM header,
which has TPM detection code in the UEFI :-) It's ready
for something you can't plug in.

   Paul

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#16611

On 2025-01-29 12:24, Paul wrote:

...

> Even when manuals are offered which are easy to get (Asus),
> the BIOS pictures can be missing sections that you happen
> to need. Not many manuals are exhaustive. They sometimes
> split the manual in two pieces, the main manual being
> the setup of the equipment, and the BIOS pdf is "generic"
> and the same manual applies to half a dozen models.
> That's how I can have a motherboard with no TPM header,
> which has TPM detection code in the UEFI 🙂 It's ready
> for something you can't plug in.

Can the BIOS chip or UEFI chip (?) be generic, or is it always 
customized to the motherboard?

It's a doubt I had for decades :-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#16613

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-29 12:24, Paul wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > Even when manuals are offered which are easy to get (Asus),
> > the BIOS pictures can be missing sections that you happen
> > to need. Not many manuals are exhaustive. They sometimes
> > split the manual in two pieces, the main manual being
> > the setup of the equipment, and the BIOS pdf is "generic"
> > and the same manual applies to half a dozen models.
> > That's how I can have a motherboard with no TPM header,
> > which has TPM detection code in the UEFI ? It's ready
> > for something you can't plug in.
> 
> Can the BIOS chip or UEFI chip (?) be generic, or is it always 
> customized to the motherboard?

  Assuming yu mean the firmware when you say "chip":

"UEFI is an open standard maintained by an industry consortium. Like
BIOS, most UEFI implementations are proprietary."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI>

  So the standard is open, but most implementations are proprietary.

> It's a doubt I had for decades :-)

  Now you have the answer.

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#16614

On 2025-01-29 14:17, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2025-01-29 12:24, Paul wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Even when manuals are offered which are easy to get (Asus),
>>> the BIOS pictures can be missing sections that you happen
>>> to need. Not many manuals are exhaustive. They sometimes
>>> split the manual in two pieces, the main manual being
>>> the setup of the equipment, and the BIOS pdf is "generic"
>>> and the same manual applies to half a dozen models.
>>> That's how I can have a motherboard with no TPM header,
>>> which has TPM detection code in the UEFI ? It's ready
>>> for something you can't plug in.
>>
>> Can the BIOS chip or UEFI chip (?) be generic, or is it always
>> customized to the motherboard?
> 
>    Assuming yu mean the firmware when you say "chip":

Well, in BIOS times it was actually a rom memory chip or two :-)

> 
> "UEFI is an open standard maintained by an industry consortium. Like
> BIOS, most UEFI implementations are proprietary."
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI>
> 
>    So the standard is open, but most implementations are proprietary.
> 
>> It's a doubt I had for decades :-)
> 
>    Now you have the answer.

Not really :-)

I meant if you could have the same rom code byte by byte put in any 
motherboard and things would work.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#16615

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-29 14:17, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 2025-01-29 12:24, Paul wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> Even when manuals are offered which are easy to get (Asus),
> >>> the BIOS pictures can be missing sections that you happen
> >>> to need. Not many manuals are exhaustive. They sometimes
> >>> split the manual in two pieces, the main manual being
> >>> the setup of the equipment, and the BIOS pdf is "generic"
> >>> and the same manual applies to half a dozen models.
> >>> That's how I can have a motherboard with no TPM header,
> >>> which has TPM detection code in the UEFI ? It's ready
> >>> for something you can't plug in.
> >>
> >> Can the BIOS chip or UEFI chip (?) be generic, or is it always
> >> customized to the motherboard?
> > 
> >    Assuming yu mean the firmware when you say "chip":
> 
> Well, in BIOS times it was actually a rom memory chip or two :-)
> 
> > "UEFI is an open standard maintained by an industry consortium. Like
> > BIOS, most UEFI implementations are proprietary."
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI>
> > 
> >    So the standard is open, but most implementations are proprietary.
> > 
> >> It's a doubt I had for decades :-)
> > 
> >    Now you have the answer.
> 
> Not really :-)
> 
> I meant if you could have the same rom code byte by byte put in any 
> motherboard and things would work.

  No, that won't work, unless the motherboards are very similar, i.e. at
least from the same manufacturer.

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#16618

On Wed, 1/29/2025 8:38 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-01-29 14:17, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>
>>    So the standard is open, but most implementations are proprietary.
>>
>>> It's a doubt I had for decades :-)
>>
>>    Now you have the answer.
> 
> Not really :-)
> 
> I meant if you could have the same rom code byte by byte put in any motherboard and things would work.
> 

The BIOS is like a small file system.

This encourages some notion of modularity. For example,
if I have two board variants, one has a SIL3112 chip with
two SATA ports and the other does not, I can equip the
BIOS on each board with the same SATA module (so the
board can boot from it), and if a board does not have
a SIL3112 chip on its surface, the SIL3112 module is
not loaded when the BIOS POSTs.

It's possible to handle some variants, without making
major changes to how things work.

But generally speaking, you as the customer cannot know
whether there is some custom GPIO assignment on your board,
which is different than other boards in the same product line.

With the poor expansion capabilities today on motherboards,
you can have a microATX and a full ATX board which have
identical schematics, and then your dream of a common BIOS
could be met. But each BIOS file has a custom identifier,
and a board1 BIOS will not flash into a board2 motherboard.
They check for that at update time. You would have to use
an EEPROM programmer, to bypass the check.

   Paul

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#16678

On 2025-01-29 19:59, Paul wrote:
> On Wed, 1/29/2025 8:38 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-01-29 14:17, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>
>>>     So the standard is open, but most implementations are proprietary.
>>>
>>>> It's a doubt I had for decades :-)
>>>
>>>     Now you have the answer.
>>
>> Not really :-)
>>
>> I meant if you could have the same rom code byte by byte put in any motherboard and things would work.
>>
> 
> The BIOS is like a small file system.
> 
> This encourages some notion of modularity. For example,
> if I have two board variants, one has a SIL3112 chip with
> two SATA ports and the other does not, I can equip the
> BIOS on each board with the same SATA module (so the
> board can boot from it), and if a board does not have
> a SIL3112 chip on its surface, the SIL3112 module is
> not loaded when the BIOS POSTs.
> 
> It's possible to handle some variants, without making
> major changes to how things work.
> 
> But generally speaking, you as the customer cannot know
> whether there is some custom GPIO assignment on your board,
> which is different than other boards in the same product line.
> 
> With the poor expansion capabilities today on motherboards,
> you can have a microATX and a full ATX board which have
> identical schematics, and then your dream of a common BIOS
> could be met. But each BIOS file has a custom identifier,
> and a board1 BIOS will not flash into a board2 motherboard.
> They check for that at update time. You would have to use
> an EEPROM programmer, to bypass the check.

Understood. Thank you both :-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#16612

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 1/29/2025 6:06 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 1/28/2025 9:33 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > 
> > [My advice how to identify the computer and how to boot it.]
> > 
> >> The CR0002A.
> >>
> >>    https://www.hp.com/au-en/shop/hp-all-in-one-24-cr0002a-pc-911k7pa.html
> >>
> >> There does not seem to be a user manual.
> > 
> >   Of course there is a user manual, but in the Support (Duh!) section:
> > 
> > <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer>
> > 
> >   There apparently are three models, refurbished 24", 24" and 27".
> > 
> >   Example for the 24" model, the User Guide is here:
> > 
> > <https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/setup-user-guides/hp-all-in-one-desktop-pc-24-cr0000i/model/2101581949?sku=911K7PA>
> > 
> >   Direct link:
> > 
> > <https://kaas.hpcloud.hp.com/pdf-public/pdf_3941897_en-US-1.pdf>
> > 
> >   And indeed, page 45 says "quickly press esc".
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> 
> I clicked a "drivers/manual" link and was taken to a place
> with only drivers.

  But to the right of (Problem solving) -> 'Software & drivers', there
is 'Support by product' -> 'Computing'.

  But more to the point: In my response, which you quoted but apparently
didn't read, I already gave the URL of the specific Suppora section and
where to enter the product name/number:

<me>

						    The 'System Model'
is the product range, which gives a rough indication. The 'System SKU'
is the HP product number, i.e. the number one specifies when ordering
this particular computer. You can use this number in the Support section
of the HP website: <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer> -> "Identify
your computer for manuals and specific product information".

</me>

[...]

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#16675

On 29/01/2025 1:33 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2025 1:54 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: [...]
>>> 
>>>> On my old HP (the laptop that died), when it started up there 
>>>> was a couple of seconds 'splash screen' which included the 
>>>> message "Press <ESC> to enter System".
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe I'll just press <ESC> and see what happens next time!!
>>> 
>>> As I said in my earlier response, you want/need to get into the 
>>> 'hardware' *BIOS*. The OS, i.e. now Windows 11, does not have 
>>> anything to do with it.
>>> 
>>> What *is* relevant, as I mentioned, is the brand/model or/and 
>>> motherboard of your new desktop computer.
>> 
>> O.K., there was exactly ZERO paperwork with the Computer, however, 
>> reading the labels on the Box is it a "HP 23.8 inch All-in-One 
>> Desktop PC" which, further down the label seems to indicate it is a
>> cr002a or cr0002a PC or something similar (Small print, failing 
>> eyesight/glasses!!)
> 
> Run the 'System Information' utility. On the main page, righthand 
> side, note the 'System Model'

HP All-in-One Desktop 24-cr0xxx

> and the 'System SKU'.

System SKU 911K7PA#ABG

> The 'System Model' is the product range, which gives a rough 
> indication. The 'System SKU' is the HP product number, i.e. the 
> number one specifies when ordering this particular computer. You can 
> use this number in the Support section of the HP website: 
> <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer> -> "Identify your computer 
> for manuals and specific product information".
> 
>>> FYI, I also have HP laptops and indeed for *those*, the 'secret'
>>>  key is the 'esc' key, but for other brands, it can/will be 
>>> different.
>> 
>> As I mentioned elsewhere, my Laptop was also a HP .. 6730b model.
>> 
>> And, on this Desktop computer, I did press 'ESC' as it was booting
>>  .... to no avail.
> 
> Perhaps the timing window is (too) small. Try repeated 
> presses/releases of the 'esc' key. If that does not work, press and 
> hold the 'esc' key before/while you switch the computer on.

Could be a tad difficult/arkquid!! Car accident 40-odd years ago! ;-P 
Right Arm, Above Elbow amputee .... (can't you tell my typing is soooo 
slow??).

But almost anything is possible. ;-)

> AFAIK, for any somewhat modern HP computer, the 'esc' key should
> work.
> 
> Alternatively, use the shift+Restart->UEFI->BIOS detour,

"shift+Restart"?? Is that, sort of like, 'Start' button, 'Power-off' 
button, then 'Restart'??

> which Herbert mentioned and Andy and I further discussed. However
> that one is not trivial, so try the normal 'esc'-key way first.

Yeap. Done! and Done!

>>> So what *is* the brand/model or/and motherboard of the new 
>>> desktop computer? Don't keep us in suspense!
>>> 
>> I am trying to provide the relevant information .... when I have 
>> access to it. ;-)
-- 
Daniel70

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#16681

Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> On 29/01/2025 1:33 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[...]

> HP All-in-One Desktop 24-cr0xxx
> 
> System SKU 911K7PA#ABG

  Thanks. Now we know for sure what you have.

> > The 'System Model' is the product range, which gives a rough 
> > indication. The 'System SKU' is the HP product number, i.e. the 
> > number one specifies when ordering this particular computer. You can 
> > use this number in the Support section of the HP website: 
> > <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer> -> "Identify your computer 
> > for manuals and specific product information".

[...]

> > Alternatively, use the shift+Restart->UEFI->BIOS detour,
> 
> "shift+Restart"?? Is that, sort of like, 'Start' button, 'Power-off' 
> button, then 'Restart'??

  Yes, and press-and-hold the 'shift' key, before you click the
'Restart' icon/button. I hope that that is possible, given your physical
limitations .

> > which Herbert mentioned and Andy and I further discussed. However
> > that one is not trivial, so try the normal 'esc'-key way first.
> 
> Yeap. Done! and Done!

  Good, so now you have been able to remove the (Power-on or/and
Administrator) password(s) in the 'BIOS'?

[...]

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#16708

On 2/02/2025 3:21 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>> On 29/01/2025 1:33 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> HP All-in-One Desktop 24-cr0xxx
>>
>> System SKU 911K7PA#ABG
> 
>    Thanks. Now we know for sure what you have.
> 
>>> The 'System Model' is the product range, which gives a rough
>>> indication. The 'System SKU' is the HP product number, i.e. the
>>> number one specifies when ordering this particular computer. You can
>>> use this number in the Support section of the HP website:
>>> <https://support.hp.com/us-en/computer> -> "Identify your computer
>>> for manuals and specific product information".
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> Alternatively, use the shift+Restart->UEFI->BIOS detour,
>>
>> "shift+Restart"?? Is that, sort of like, 'Start' button, 'Power-off'
>> button, then 'Restart'??
> 
>    Yes, and press-and-hold the 'shift' key, before you click the
> 'Restart' icon/button. I hope that that is possible, given your physical
> limitations .
> 
>>> which Herbert mentioned and Andy and I further discussed. However
>>> that one is not trivial, so try the normal 'esc'-key way first.
>>
>> Yeap. Done! and Done!
> 
>    Good, so now you have been able to remove the (Power-on or/and
> Administrator) password(s) in the 'BIOS'?
> 
> [...]
> 
Umm! We'll see tomorrow. ;-)
-- 
Daniel70

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