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Groups > alt.atheism > #2170019 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Smiler <smiler@jo.king> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-09-18 00:32 +0000 |
| Last post | 2016-09-25 14:07 +0200 |
| Articles | 19 on this page of 39 — 13 participants |
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Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-18 00:32 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-09-17 22:27 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2016-09-18 06:35 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-09-18 07:49 -0500
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2016-09-18 06:35 -0700
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-19 03:46 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-19 00:53 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-19 08:15 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-19 15:43 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-20 01:02 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-20 08:21 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-20 20:04 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-21 04:56 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-22 01:16 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-23 05:03 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-24 02:42 +0000
Re: Theism is Witchcraft Wisely Non-Theist <aaa@bbb.ccc> - 2016-09-23 23:17 -0600
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-24 17:25 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> - 2016-09-24 15:03 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-25 00:32 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-24 22:06 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-25 00:36 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-25 05:18 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-25 13:56 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-25 16:02 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2016-09-25 11:04 -0500
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Ted&Alice <sam.m.tedesco@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 16:23 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-25 18:54 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-09-26 09:59 +1000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-26 07:35 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-26 15:53 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-27 06:27 +0200
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-27 06:10 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-09-25 12:19 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-25 21:42 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2016-09-26 01:14 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-26 15:53 +0000
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 00:39 -0400
Re: Atheism is Witchcraft Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-09-25 14:07 +0200
Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]
| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-24 22:06 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <e4o4m8FgrhrU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2172705 |
Am 24.09.2016 09:25, schrieb Alex W.: > >> >> >> E.g. traditional Chinese medicine was an ancient form of medicine and >> was accepted and highly developed. >> >> The modern form of curing a disease with a pill or two, is actually >> quite young. > > And it has conquered the planet because it *works*. The alternative > name for Western medicine is "evidence-based medicine" -- because its > treatments and procedures and drugs are tested, again and again, and again. > You need drugs in certain cases, but medicine is not 'handing out pills'. Certainly modern chemicals are far better that grind tiger bones. But still there is a vast realm, where pills do not cure. I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations or weather. They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot of practise. The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming sick. Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a patient from a disease. So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only sick patients. TH
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| From | Smiler <smiler@jo.king> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 00:36 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ns766n$qtv$2@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #2172933 |
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 22:06:29 +0200, Thomas Heger wrote: > Am 24.09.2016 09:25, schrieb Alex W.: >> >>> E.g. traditional Chinese medicine was an ancient form of medicine and >>> was accepted and highly developed. >>> >>> The modern form of curing a disease with a pill or two, is actually >>> quite young. >> >> And it has conquered the planet because it *works*. The alternative >> name for Western medicine is "evidence-based medicine" -- because its >> treatments and procedures and drugs are tested, again and again, and >> again. >> > You need drugs in certain cases, but medicine is not 'handing out > pills'. > > Certainly modern chemicals are far better that grind tiger bones. But > still there is a vast realm, where pills do not cure. > > I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far > superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). > > Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations > or weather. > > They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic > drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. > > To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you > need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could > not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot > of practise. > > The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid > diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming > sick. > > Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a > patient from a disease. > > So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only > sick patients. How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? -- Smiler, The godless one. aa #2279 Gods are all tailored to order. They are made to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.
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| From | Attila <<prochoice@here.now> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 05:18 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <jh5fub56m2m5fdcphom0k157jj8ev5kbmv@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #2173012 |
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 00:36:39 +0000 (UTC), Smiler <smiler@jo.king> in alt.atheism with message-id <ns766n$qtv$2@gioia.aioe.org> wrote: >On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 22:06:29 +0200, Thomas Heger wrote: > >> Am 24.09.2016 09:25, schrieb Alex W.: >>> >>>> E.g. traditional Chinese medicine was an ancient form of medicine and >>>> was accepted and highly developed. >>>> >>>> The modern form of curing a disease with a pill or two, is actually >>>> quite young. >>> >>> And it has conquered the planet because it *works*. The alternative >>> name for Western medicine is "evidence-based medicine" -- because its >>> treatments and procedures and drugs are tested, again and again, and >>> again. >>> >> You need drugs in certain cases, but medicine is not 'handing out >> pills'. >> >> Certainly modern chemicals are far better that grind tiger bones. But >> still there is a vast realm, where pills do not cure. >> >> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >> >> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations >> or weather. >> >> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic >> drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >> >> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot >> of practise. >> >> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid >> diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming >> sick. >> >> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a >> patient from a disease. >> >> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only >> sick patients. > >How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? Or even bubonic plague. -- Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent. Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor OBastard. Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government guaranteed above average income for every person. Every illegal alien is a criminal. No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason. Deportation upon identification as the only option. If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly before you run into me.
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 13:56 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <e4psc2Ft9lbU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2173135 |
Am 25.09.2016 11:18, schrieb Attila <: >>> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >>> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >>> >>> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations >>> or weather. >>> >>> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic >>> drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >>> >>> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >>> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >>> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot >>> of practise. >>> >>> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid >>> diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming >>> sick. >>> >>> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a >>> patient from a disease. >>> >>> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only >>> sick patients. >> >> How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >> How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >> How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? > > Or even bubonic plague. The idea of Chinese medicine is trying to prevent people from getting sick. To cure a disease is the principle of western medicine (not of traditional Chinese medicine). To illustrate the difference I use as example a car. one paradigm is: careful use and early maintenance the other principle: careless use and pickup truck to the garage TH
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| From | Smiler <smiler@jo.king> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 16:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ns8se9$15fe$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #2173154 |
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 13:56:46 +0200, Thomas Heger wrote: > Am 25.09.2016 11:18, schrieb Attila <: > >>>> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >>>> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >>>> >>>> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal >>>> relations or weather. >>>> >>>> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without >>>> synthetic drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >>>> >>>> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >>>> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >>>> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a >>>> lot of practise. >>>> >>>> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to >>>> avoid diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from >>>> becoming sick. >>>> >>>> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to >>>> cure a patient from a disease. >>>> >>>> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see >>>> only sick patients. >>> >>> How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >>> How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >>> How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? >> >> Or even bubonic plague. > > The idea of Chinese medicine is trying to prevent people from getting > sick. > > To cure a disease is the principle of western medicine (not of > traditional Chinese medicine). > > To illustrate the difference I use as example a car. > > one paradigm is: careful use and early maintenance > > the other principle: careless use and pickup truck to the garage How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting contagious diseases? How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting cancers? Or, to use your analogy, how does it stop someone else from smashing into your stationary car? -- Smiler, The godless one. aa #2279 Gods are all tailored to order. They are made to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.
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| From | Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 11:04 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <h9tfubpefsa0s131m43m860kl7fkp132sf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #2173246 |
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 16:02:17 +0000 (UTC), Smiler <smiler@jo.king> wrote: >On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 13:56:46 +0200, Thomas Heger wrote: > >> Am 25.09.2016 11:18, schrieb Attila <: >> >>>>> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >>>>> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >>>>> >>>>> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal >>>>> relations or weather. >>>>> >>>>> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without >>>>> synthetic drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >>>>> >>>>> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >>>>> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >>>>> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a >>>>> lot of practise. >>>>> >>>>> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to >>>>> avoid diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from >>>>> becoming sick. >>>>> >>>>> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to >>>>> cure a patient from a disease. >>>>> >>>>> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see >>>>> only sick patients. >>>> >>>> How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >>>> How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >>>> How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? >>> >>> Or even bubonic plague. >> >> The idea of Chinese medicine is trying to prevent people from getting >> sick. >> >> To cure a disease is the principle of western medicine (not of >> traditional Chinese medicine). >> >> To illustrate the difference I use as example a car. >> >> one paradigm is: careful use and early maintenance >> >> the other principle: careless use and pickup truck to the garage > >How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting contagious diseases? >How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting cancers? >Or, to use your analogy, how does it stop someone else from smashing into >your stationary car? The moron can't have heard of vaccination, regular exercise, good diet, personal hygiene, etc.
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| From | Ted&Alice <sam.m.tedesco@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 16:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <224500944496512670.030185sam.m.tedesco-gmail.com@news.easynews.com> |
| In reply to | #2173246 |
Smiler <smiler@jo.king> wrote: > On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 13:56:46 +0200, Thomas Heger wrote: > >> Am 25.09.2016 11:18, schrieb Attila <: >> >>>>> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >>>>> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >>>>> >>>>> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal >>>>> relations or weather. >>>>> >>>>> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without >>>>> synthetic drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >>>>> >>>>> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >>>>> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >>>>> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a >>>>> lot of practise. >>>>> >>>>> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to >>>>> avoid diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from >>>>> becoming sick. >>>>> >>>>> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to >>>>> cure a patient from a disease. >>>>> >>>>> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see >>>>> only sick patients. >>>> >>>> How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >>>> How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >>>> How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? >>> >>> Or even bubonic plague. >> >> The idea of Chinese medicine is trying to prevent people from getting >> sick. >> >> To cure a disease is the principle of western medicine (not of >> traditional Chinese medicine). >> >> To illustrate the difference I use as example a car. >> >> one paradigm is: careful use and early maintenance >> >> the other principle: careless use and pickup truck to the garage > > How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting contagious diseases? > How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting cancers? > Or, to use your analogy, how does it stop someone else from smashing into > your stationary car? <crickets>
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 18:54 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <e4qdr5F32qjU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2173246 |
Am 25.09.2016 18:02, schrieb Smiler: >>>>> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >>>>> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >>>>> >>>>> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal >>>>> relations or weather. >>>>> >>>>> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without >>>>> synthetic drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >>>>> >>>>> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >>>>> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >>>>> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a >>>>> lot of practise. >>>>> >>>>> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to >>>>> avoid diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from >>>>> becoming sick. >>>>> >>>>> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to >>>>> cure a patient from a disease. >>>>> >>>>> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see >>>>> only sick patients. >>>> >>>> How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >>>> How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >>>> How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? >>> >>> Or even bubonic plague. >> >> The idea of Chinese medicine is trying to prevent people from getting >> sick. >> >> To cure a disease is the principle of western medicine (not of >> traditional Chinese medicine). >> >> To illustrate the difference I use as example a car. >> >> one paradigm is: careful use and early maintenance >> >> the other principle: careless use and pickup truck to the garage > > How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting contagious diseases? > How does Chinese medicine prevent people from getting cancers? > Or, to use your analogy, how does it stop someone else from smashing into > your stationary car? 'The main concept' is not the same as 'all they could do'. Actually I'm insecure, if surgery of some kind had belonged to what these doctors did. But in principle they had the focus on keeping people healthy. This had to do with 'Chi' and 'Yin' and 'Yang', with five elements and a lot of meridians and so forth. They tried to balance the energies and if they came out of balance, than people get sick. (somehow like that) Accidents did happen and also injuries in war. But that was not the realm of herbs and acupuncture. This is a concept, which modern medicine is missing (attempts to keep healthy people healthy). Actually a lot of common activities are not particularly healthy. This ranges from most sports over food to smoking. E.g. people take very serious risks in certain activities, that are seemingly leisure, like e.g. paragliding or free-climbing. Low hygiene increases the risk of infections. Or people use drugs for entertainment and hurt their own body. They would be better off, if they get up early in the morning and practise Tai Chi in the park. TH
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| From | "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-26 09:59 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <e4r6noF8tqtU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2173279 |
On 26/09/2016 02:54, Thomas Heger wrote: > > Actually I'm insecure, if surgery of some kind had belonged to what > these doctors did. > > But in principle they had the focus on keeping people healthy. This had > to do with 'Chi' and 'Yin' and 'Yang', with five elements and a lot of > meridians and so forth. > > They tried to balance the energies and if they came out of balance, than > people get sick. (somehow like that) > > Accidents did happen and also injuries in war. But that was not the > realm of herbs and acupuncture. > > This is a concept, which modern medicine is missing (attempts to keep > healthy people healthy). Incorrect. Preventative medicine is alive and well. Free annual check-ups, nationwide screening schemes for breast and testicular cancers, education campaigns on the benefits of exercise and vegetables in your diet, more campaigns to educate on the dangers of drugs, alcohol and tobacco .... modern evidence-based medicine does a lot to keep people healthy. > > Actually a lot of common activities are not particularly healthy. This > ranges from most sports over food to smoking. > > E.g. people take very serious risks in certain activities, that are > seemingly leisure, like e.g. paragliding or free-climbing. > > Low hygiene increases the risk of infections. > > Or people use drugs for entertainment and hurt their own body. > > They would be better off, if they get up early in the morning and > practise Tai Chi in the park. Nothing to do with Chinese medicine, and everything with common sense and an appreciation of moderation in everything.
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-26 07:35 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <e4rqe4Fd0adU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2173358 |
Am 26.09.2016 01:59, schrieb Alex W.: >> Actually I'm insecure, if surgery of some kind had belonged to what >> these doctors did. >> >> But in principle they had the focus on keeping people healthy. This had >> to do with 'Chi' and 'Yin' and 'Yang', with five elements and a lot of >> meridians and so forth. >> >> They tried to balance the energies and if they came out of balance, than >> people get sick. (somehow like that) >> >> Accidents did happen and also injuries in war. But that was not the >> realm of herbs and acupuncture. >> >> This is a concept, which modern medicine is missing (attempts to keep >> healthy people healthy). > > Incorrect. > > Preventative medicine is alive and well. Free annual check-ups, > nationwide screening schemes for breast and testicular cancers, > education campaigns on the benefits of exercise and vegetables in your > diet, more campaigns to educate on the dangers of drugs, alcohol and > tobacco .... modern evidence-based medicine does a lot to keep people > healthy. > Traditional Chinese medicine would not do that and screen for breast cancer (for instance). The very idea of breast cancer belongs to western medicine, hence has no equivalence in what ancient Chinese doctors did. The Chinese believed, that 'Yin' and 'Yan' would float through the body on certain 'meridians'. At certain points it would connect the body to the environment and could be manipulated by the doctor. The doctor tries to keep the energies in balance and hoped, this would keep the person healthy. This idea is obviously remote to western medicine, since it does not concentrate on a disease (like e.g. cancer) but on health. But I'm not an expert in Chinese medicine, even I have read some books about it. So you may inform yourself from other source like e.g. this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine >> Actually a lot of common activities are not particularly healthy. This >> ranges from most sports over food to smoking. >> >> E.g. people take very serious risks in certain activities, that are >> seemingly leisure, like e.g. paragliding or free-climbing. >> >> Low hygiene increases the risk of infections. >> >> Or people use drugs for entertainment and hurt their own body. >> >> They would be better off, if they get up early in the morning and >> practise Tai Chi in the park. > > Nothing to do with Chinese medicine, and everything with common sense > and an appreciation of moderation in everything. Well, no, since Tai Chi does belong to the realm of traditional Chinese medicine. It is actually difficult to learn and common sense does not help very much. So people should learn TCM from good teachers (and not from books). TH
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| From | Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-26 15:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <9o85re.kj0.19.2@news.alt.net> |
| In reply to | #2173490 |
Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> wrote: > Am 26.09.2016 01:59, schrieb Alex W.: > >>> Actually I'm insecure, if surgery of some kind had belonged to what >>> these doctors did. >>> >>> But in principle they had the focus on keeping people healthy. This had >>> to do with 'Chi' and 'Yin' and 'Yang', with five elements and a lot of >>> meridians and so forth. >>> >>> They tried to balance the energies and if they came out of balance, than >>> people get sick. (somehow like that) >>> >>> Accidents did happen and also injuries in war. But that was not the >>> realm of herbs and acupuncture. >>> >>> This is a concept, which modern medicine is missing (attempts to keep >>> healthy people healthy). >> >> Incorrect. >> >> Preventative medicine is alive and well. Free annual check-ups, >> nationwide screening schemes for breast and testicular cancers, >> education campaigns on the benefits of exercise and vegetables in your >> diet, more campaigns to educate on the dangers of drugs, alcohol and >> tobacco .... modern evidence-based medicine does a lot to keep people >> healthy. >> > > Traditional Chinese medicine would not do that and screen for breast > cancer (for instance). > > The very idea of breast cancer belongs to western medicine, hence has no > equivalence in what ancient Chinese doctors did. This shows your lack of understanding about the history of traditional Chinese medicine, Thomas. But go ahead and show us all how little you know but are willing to play the roll of the buffoon. > The Chinese believed, that 'Yin' and 'Yan' would float through the body > on certain 'meridians'. At certain points it would connect the body to > the environment and could be manipulated by the doctor. > > The doctor tries to keep the energies in balance and hoped, this would > keep the person healthy. > > This idea is obviously remote to western medicine, since it does not > concentrate on a disease (like e.g. cancer) but on health. You do realize the yin and yang were religious beliefs, and when you attempt to mix religious dogma with medicine you get nothing? > But I'm not an expert in Chinese medicine, even I have read some books > about it. So you may inform yourself from other source like e.g. this one LOL? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine Did you look,at the discussion pages Thomas? Much of what is written there is in dispute. It is not at the point of a full blow edit war but nearly at that point. > >>> Actually a lot of common activities are not particularly healthy. This >>> ranges from most sports over food to smoking. >>> >>> E.g. people take very serious risks in certain activities, that are >>> seemingly leisure, like e.g. paragliding or free-climbing. >>> >>> Low hygiene increases the risk of infections. >>> >>> Or people use drugs for entertainment and hurt their own body. >>> >>> They would be better off, if they get up early in the morning and >>> practise Tai Chi in the park. >> >> Nothing to do with Chinese medicine, and everything with common sense >> and an appreciation of moderation in everything. > > > Well, no, since Tai Chi does belong to the realm of traditional Chinese > medicine. > > It is actually difficult to learn and common sense does not help very > much. So people should learn TCM from good teachers (and not from books). Why would that make a difference? When tested properly, TCM fails. EOF -- Dunning's work explained in clear, concise and simple terms. John Cleese on Stupidity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-27 06:27 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <e4uappF135oU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2173601 |
Am 26.09.2016 17:53, schrieb Bob Officer: >> Traditional Chinese medicine would not do that and screen for breast >> > cancer (for instance). >> > >> > The very idea of breast cancer belongs to western medicine, hence has no >> > equivalence in what ancient Chinese doctors did. > This shows your lack of understanding about the history of traditional > Chinese medicine, Thomas. But go ahead and show us all how little you know > but are willing to play the roll of the buffoon. > > I have not pretended to know very much about TCM. But at least I know a little about it, while you know nothing. TH
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| From | Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-27 06:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <9o9o17.oa.17.3@news.alt.net> |
| In reply to | #2173858 |
Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> wrote: > Am 26.09.2016 17:53, schrieb Bob Officer: >>> Traditional Chinese medicine would not do that and screen for breast >>>> cancer (for instance). >>>> >>>> The very idea of breast cancer belongs to western medicine, hence has no >>>> equivalence in what ancient Chinese doctors did. > >> This shows your lack of understanding about the history of traditional >> Chinese medicine, Thomas. But go ahead and show us all how little you know >> but are willing to play the roll of the buffoon. >> >> > > I have not pretended to know very much about TCM. > > But at least I know a little about it, while you know nothing. But I know far more than you do, and run away Thomas, that's what you do best. -- Dunning's work explained in clear, concise and simple terms. John Cleese on Stupidity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU
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| From | Attila <<prochoice@here.now> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 12:19 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <45ufub1jg9ehbmfci75h16uqfp7th26j3e@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #2173154 |
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 13:56:46 +0200, Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> in alt.atheism with message-id <e4psc2Ft9lbU1@mid.individual.net> wrote: >Am 25.09.2016 11:18, schrieb Attila <: > >>>> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >>>> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >>>> >>>> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations >>>> or weather. >>>> >>>> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic >>>> drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >>>> >>>> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >>>> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >>>> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot >>>> of practise. >>>> >>>> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid >>>> diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming >>>> sick. >>>> >>>> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a >>>> patient from a disease. >>>> >>>> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only >>>> sick patients. >>> >>> How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >>> How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >>> How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? >> >> Or even bubonic plague. > >The idea of Chinese medicine is trying to prevent people from getting sick. The only success was in making animals extinct. > >To cure a disease is the principle of western medicine (not of >traditional Chinese medicine). > >To illustrate the difference I use as example a car. > >one paradigm is: careful use and early maintenance > >the other principle: careless use and pickup truck to the garage > > > >TH The body does not have parts that are replaced when worn. -- Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent. Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor OBastard. Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government guaranteed above average income for every person. Every illegal alien is a criminal. No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason. Deportation upon identification as the only option. If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly before you run into me.
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| From | Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 21:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <9o65sv.13e.19.1@news.alt.net> |
| In reply to | #2173154 |
Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> wrote: > Am 25.09.2016 11:18, schrieb Attila <: > >>>> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >>>> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >>>> >>>> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations >>>> or weather. >>>> >>>> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic >>>> drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >>>> >>>> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >>>> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >>>> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot >>>> of practise. >>>> >>>> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid >>>> diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming >>>> sick. >>>> >>>> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a >>>> patient from a disease. >>>> >>>> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only >>>> sick patients. >>> >>> How did Chinese medicine eradicate smallpox? >>> How is Chinese medicine helping to eradicate polio? >>> How has Chinese medicine helped to find cures for cancers? >> >> Or even bubonic plague. > > The idea of Chinese medicine is trying to prevent people from getting sick. And failed. The actual method the Chinese used was isolation. > To cure a disease is the principle of western medicine (not of > traditional Chinese medicine). And Chinese medicine didn't work. There are records suggest large scale number of population was suffering from lead poisoning allow easy conquest during the expansion of the European Empires. > To illustrate the difference I use as example a car. > > one paradigm is: careful use and early maintenance > > the other principle: careless use and pickup truck to the garage An example of what? That made no sense, Thomas? One needs to,ask if you are drunk or stoned, again? > -- Dunning's work explained in clear, concise and simple terms. John Cleese on Stupidity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU
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| From | Smiler <smiler@jo.king> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-26 01:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ns9spc$krh$2@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #2173322 |
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:42:21 +0000, Bob Officer wrote: <snip> > An example of what? That made no sense, Thomas? One needs to,ask if you > are drunk or stoned, again? More likely is that insanity is his problem. -- Smiler, The godless one. aa #2279 Gods are all tailored to order. They are made to exactly fit the prejudices of the believer.
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| From | Bob Officer <no_email@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-26 15:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <9o85re.kj0.19.1@news.alt.net> |
| In reply to | #2173385 |
Smiler <smiler@jo.king> wrote: > On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:42:21 +0000, Bob Officer wrote: > > > <snip> > >> An example of what? That made no sense, Thomas? One needs to,ask if you >> are drunk or stoned, again? > > More likely is that insanity is his problem. > Final stage of spirochete infection? -- Dunning's work explained in clear, concise and simple terms. John Cleese on Stupidity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU
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| From | Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 00:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ns7kd4$u6u$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #2172933 |
Le 2016-09-24 à 16:06, Thomas Heger a écrit : > Am 24.09.2016 09:25, schrieb Alex W.: >> >>> >>> >>> E.g. traditional Chinese medicine was an ancient form of medicine and >>> was accepted and highly developed. >>> >>> The modern form of curing a disease with a pill or two, is actually >>> quite young. >> >> And it has conquered the planet because it *works*. The alternative >> name for Western medicine is "evidence-based medicine" -- because its >> treatments and procedures and drugs are tested, again and again, and >> again. >> > > > You need drugs in certain cases, but medicine is not 'handing out pills'. > > Certainly modern chemicals are far better that grind tiger bones. But > still there is a vast realm, where pills do not cure. > > I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far > superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). > > Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations > or weather. > > They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic > drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. > > To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you > need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could > not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot > of practise. > > The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid > diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming > sick. > > Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a > patient from a disease. > > So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only > sick patients. Chinese death rate : 100 % Causes of death in Chinese people : http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/leading-causes-of-death-in-china.html Life expectancy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy China is 53rd, Canada is 12th. I'll stick with my healthcare regime... > TH -- Olrik aa #1981 EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-09-25 14:07 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <e4psvmFtedrU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2173089 |
Am 25.09.2016 06:39, schrieb Olrik: >>>> E.g. traditional Chinese medicine was an ancient form of medicine and >>>> was accepted and highly developed. >>>> >>>> The modern form of curing a disease with a pill or two, is actually >>>> quite young. >>> >>> And it has conquered the planet because it *works*. The alternative >>> name for Western medicine is "evidence-based medicine" -- because its >>> treatments and procedures and drugs are tested, again and again, and >>> again. >>> >> >> >> You need drugs in certain cases, but medicine is not 'handing out pills'. >> >> Certainly modern chemicals are far better that grind tiger bones. But >> still there is a vast realm, where pills do not cure. >> >> I think, the principles of traditional Chinese medicine are by far >> superior to what western doctors do (besides handing out pills). >> >> Chinese medicine also covers food, quality of homes, personal relations >> or weather. >> >> They have a lot of physical treatments, which operate without synthetic >> drugs, like e.g. massage or acupuncture. >> >> To apply such form of treatment you need extensive training. And you >> need a teacher, that act more like a 'personal trainer'. So you could >> not learn Chinese medicine from books, but you need a trainer and a lot >> of practise. >> >> The Chinese medicine has as a main principle, that doctors try to avoid >> diseases and there efforts are, to hinder their patients from becoming >> sick. >> >> Western medicine is based on the idea of intervention and aims to cure a >> patient from a disease. >> >> So Chinese doctors see healthy patients, while western doctors see only >> sick patients. > > Chinese death rate : 100 % > > Causes of death in Chinese people : > > http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/leading-causes-of-death-in-china.html > > Life expectancy : > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy > > China is 53rd, Canada is 12th. I'll stick with my healthcare regime... > Traditional Chinese medicine is not that popular in current China. 'Traditional' means: a few thousand years ago until the end of the last Chinese Empire. Mao and his cronies had banned this type of medicine, the monasteries were destroyed and the doctors 're-educated'. There is some kind of revival. But China is large and the population mainly poor. They are also quite careless with avoidable risks like e.g. toxic materials. They have pollution problems, too. TH
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