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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #651839
| From | tomyee3@gmail.com (ProkaryoticCaspaseHomolog) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity, sci.physics, sci.math |
| Subject | Re: ? ? ? |
| Date | 2024-02-29 16:54 +0000 |
| Organization | novaBBS |
| Message-ID | <abd1af5f6c6e172db813996bbc8a1fbd@www.novabbs.com> (permalink) |
| References | (10 earlier) <l42p7pF1fdhU1@mid.individual.net> <uriu05$3kjja$1@paganini.bofh.team> <l45ek0Fe0s6U1@mid.individual.net> <urobnk$3v1g$1@dont-email.me> <l4ak2fF7mb7U1@mid.individual.net> |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
Thomas Heger wrote: > The concept of time is actually based on counting events, about which we > assume, they would occur always with the same frequency. > That was the year or the day in ancient times and later the hour and the > second. > Much later men counted the waves in certain kinds of exitations of > certain atoms. > But in all cases a process of counting was meant, where the underlying > frequency was assumed to be universally constant. > But: that is problematic, because actually we don't know, whether these > frequencies are universally constant or not. > This is so, because the second is defined and measured by the same > process, which frequency we like to measure. This all comes down to the age-old question that has been repeatedly debated on these forums: What is a clock? Several years ago, Franz Heymann made a good start in defining the term. The following represents my feeble attempt to improve on his definition. I invite others to make corrections and enhancements to what I have written here. A "clock" is an artifact (possibly including natural components) comprising a component (A) that undergoes cyclical changes of state, and a monitoring component (B) that indicates each return of the cyclically varying component to a particular state of its cycle. A "useful clock" will optionally include a component (C) that scales the output of component (B) so as to mark off units of time that have greater utility and/or which will allow the clock output to be compared with that of other clocks. Component (A) must be self-contained in that its period of repetitive cycling must not be dependent on the application of external forces or timing signals. (However, it is not necessary that the clock be self- contained in its power requirements.) If one has a large ensemble of "useful clocks" in a common location at the same gravitational potential and in the same state of motion, the "good clocks" among the ensemble may be distinguished by how closely their timing outputs maintain a constant ratio with the timing average of the ensemble. Successive winnowing of "good clocks" enables the selection of "better clocks". A "better clock" in which the period of its repetitive cycling component is set by a fundamental physical process that may be independently and locally reproduced by individuals well-versed in the art of clock manufacture is a "candidate standard clock". "Candidate standard clocks" are not broadly tunable. Variations in timing from one "candidate standard clock" to another arise depend on the quality factor (Q factor) of their repetitive cycling components and the quality of the instrumentation that monitors their cycles. Given different classes of "candidate standard clock" distinguished by the physical processes that they monitor as their central timing components, one or another class may be designated, for a time, as a "standard clock". By the above definition, 1) A wall clock plugged into 50 or 60 Hz mains is not a "clock" because it is dependent on the externally generated mains frequency for its timing. 2) A pendulum clock is not a "clock", because the repetitive cycling of the pendulum is dependent on the local force of gravity. 3) Stonehenge is not a "clock". However, the Stonehenge-Earth-Sun system comprises not just a "clock", but a "useful clock" that had utility in timing religious ceremonies and crop plantings. 4) Hourglasses and water clocks are not "clocks". 5) A clock based on a quartz crystal, although potentially highly stable, cannot be a "candidate standard clock" because the frequency of crystal oscillation is not set by a fundamental physical process, but rather depends on details of how the crystal is cut. 6) Although a clock based on, say, the period of a millisecond pulsar may be an "extremely good clock", it cannot be a "candidate standard clock" because its central timing component cannot be locally reproduced by individuals in different areas of the universe. Individuals in different states of motion and in differing gravitational potentials will observe that the pulsar period, although highly stable, will not correlate exactly with times they they measure on "local standard clocks". Furthermore, the phase of the received signal depends on one's location with respect to the distant timing component, which varies with the Earth's rotation, its orbit around the Sun, the Sun's travel through the galaxy, etc. Suggestions for improving on my attempt at defining different types of clock are welcome!
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Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-23 08:09 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-23 15:02 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-23 21:35 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-24 07:40 -0500
Re: ? ? ? Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-24 13:07 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-24 16:38 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-24 16:55 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Lénárt Szakács Keresztes <fn@jvre.hu> - 2024-02-24 19:58 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-02-24 14:34 -0600
Re: ? ? ? Oga Shiganori Yoshikawa <nooos@nooor.jp> - 2024-02-24 23:22 +0000
Re: ? ? ? pnalsing@gmail.com (palsing) - 2024-02-25 02:51 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Jon-Michael Zhong <ja@llcmz.cn> - 2024-02-25 16:06 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-25 14:56 -0500
Re: ? ? ? Wilbert Araújo <rrallri@jreia.pt> - 2024-02-25 20:29 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Kennith Félix Escárcega <egkeb@uefcrake.es> - 2024-02-25 20:49 +0000
Re: ? ? ? tomyee3@gmail.com (ProkaryoticCaspaseHomolog) - 2024-02-24 16:35 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-23 15:47 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-02-23 16:53 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-24 08:48 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-24 11:01 +0200
Re: ? ? ? Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-24 13:06 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-02-24 15:52 +0200
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-02-25 13:30 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-25 07:50 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-25 15:42 +0000
Re: ? ? ? "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-25 21:36 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-26 07:30 +0100
Re: ? ? ? "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-26 11:02 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Piotr Babchenko Bakulev <ptpet@ito.ru> - 2024-02-26 20:57 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-27 07:48 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Huy Kántor Hegedűs <re@uushhes.hu> - 2024-02-28 22:22 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-02-29 06:51 +0100
Re: ? ? ? tomyee3@gmail.com (ProkaryoticCaspaseHomolog) - 2024-02-29 16:54 +0000
Re: ? ? ? "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-02-29 22:23 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-02-29 20:13 -0800
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-01 07:27 +0100
Re: ? ? ? tomyee3@gmail.com (ProkaryoticCaspaseHomolog) - 2024-03-01 17:04 +0000
Re: ? ? ? "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-03-01 20:47 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-01 23:44 +0100
Re: ? ? ? tomyee3@gmail.com (ProkaryoticCaspaseHomolog) - 2024-03-02 06:59 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-03 08:04 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Michelle Tatár Buzás <llihpm@selce.hu> - 2024-03-02 09:34 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-01 07:25 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-03-01 14:24 -0500
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-01 23:41 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Bennie Müller Madarász <llye@nuilrnm.hu> - 2024-03-02 00:33 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-05 21:26 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Boris Kuang She <ooo@rsisres.cn> - 2024-03-05 23:16 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-06 06:53 +0100
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-05 23:17 -0800
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-05 23:30 -0800
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-05 23:44 -0800
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-06 00:00 -0800
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-06 09:14 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2024-03-06 08:57 -0500
Re: ? ? ? Barros Romão <dko@rddda.pt> - 2024-03-06 14:25 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-03-06 11:03 -0500
Re: ? ? ? Rózsa Szőllősi <nrme@rnaazj.hu> - 2024-03-06 14:07 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-06 16:29 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-07 07:57 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-07 15:41 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-08 09:12 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-08 10:10 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-09 08:20 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Bogdan Guleichik Balagul <gb@giioh.ru> - 2024-03-09 08:04 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-10 08:41 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Hania Pusztai Sebestyén <iuti@aapiz.hu> - 2024-03-10 08:03 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-15 08:14 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Connie Bairashevski Balashoff <ahhe@vks.ru> - 2024-03-15 11:19 +0000
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Re: ? ? ? Chellos Leontarakis <akbsto@hs.gr> - 2024-03-17 09:05 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-21 07:37 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Péter Juhász <spt@ebn.hu> - 2024-03-21 13:46 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-23 08:03 +0100
Re: ? ? ? TReena Pooja Kishan <iaa@trarin.in> - 2024-03-23 17:21 +0000
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Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-14 09:42 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-17 07:55 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-17 09:00 +0100
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-17 13:03 -0700
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Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-18 06:59 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-18 07:24 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-18 07:54 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-20 08:29 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-20 15:22 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-03-20 16:10 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Elijah Katzuba Bakiev <evekj@bljja.ru> - 2024-03-20 22:34 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-21 10:08 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-23 08:08 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-23 10:29 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Zozrov Bakinov Mikhalev <ozoa@rioiro.ru> - 2024-03-23 19:40 +0000
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-18 07:24 -0700
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-19 01:01 -0700
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-19 13:16 +0100
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-19 11:58 -0700
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Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-19 12:09 -0700
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-19 20:35 +0100
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-19 23:22 -0700
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-20 14:53 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Osiris Moy <yoo@mrssiyr.cn> - 2024-03-14 10:09 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Physfitfreak <Physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-03-06 12:42 -0600
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-06 12:58 -0800
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-06 13:02 -0800
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-06 13:05 -0800
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-03-06 13:09 -0800
Re: ? ? ? Physfitfreak <Physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-03-06 15:46 -0600
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-06 16:26 +0100
Re: ? ? ? "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-03-06 19:42 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-03-06 22:08 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2024-02-29 09:22 -0800
Re: ? ? ? Physfitfreak <Physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-02-29 12:23 -0600
Re: ? ? ? Vinson Makricosta Stamatelos <nnnncv@sk.gr> - 2024-02-29 20:39 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Physfitfreak <physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-02-29 15:27 -0600
Re: ? ? ? bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertitaylor) - 2024-03-21 13:05 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-03-23 08:18 +0100
Re: ? ? ? bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertitaylor) - 2024-03-23 10:24 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Yatzyk Trampotova <ezyey@kynyrt.ru> - 2024-03-23 17:39 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-02-26 13:36 +0100
Re: ? ? ? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2024-02-27 09:27 -0500
Re: ? ? ? Maria Komáromi Forgács <vcro@fmma.hu> - 2024-02-25 17:10 +0000
Re: ? ? ? Physfitfreak <Physfitfreak@gmail.com> - 2024-02-25 15:47 -0600
Re: ? ? ? Ionio Sabbag Nassar <ibabn@nagaig.eg> - 2024-02-25 23:18 +0000
Re: ? ? ? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-02-25 15:50 -0800
Re: ? ? ? Richard Hachel <pourquoi-pas@tiscali.fr> - 2024-02-24 12:59 +0000
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