Groups > sci.electronics.design > #733296

Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.
Date	2025-05-15 12:37 +0200
Message-ID	<4osgflxtup.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <WLHUP.255339$v2h6.142714@fx14.iad> <vvvm80$1sf5m$1@dont-email.me> <kB1VP.48755$JRnc.12987@fx37.iad> <0l6fflx9t.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <10040vj$302p5$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2025-05-15 08:18, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 15/05/2025 5:14 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-05-14 16:16, Glen Walpert wrote:
>>> On Tue, 13 May 2025 07:50:36 -0700, Don Y wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/13/2025 6:26 AM, Glen Walpert wrote:
>>>>>> I don't think that using broadcast radio for real time mains grid
>>>>>> control is a good idea. It would be far too unreliable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point to point RF links have been in use in (mostly hard wired) grid
>>>>> control SCADA (System Control And Data Acquisition) systems for at
>>>>> least 30 years, which is when a former employer did some work on a
>>>>> SCADA upgrade project for the Egyptian Electrical Authority.  A search
>>>>> on 'SCADA radio link' will turn up several vendors.
>>>>
>>>> And they used these to control instantaneous frequency and phase?  Or,
>>>> just coarse data collection and /supervisory/ control?
>>>
>>> SCADA is used to monitor and control the grid, where control is done in
>>> real time by adjusting the set points for real and reactive power at all
>>> controlled power sources.  A small percentage of sources being
>>> inaccessible degrades control by an insignificant amount.
>>>
>>> Real power is regulated by the prime mover governors, which must be
>>> operated in droop mode in order to share the load (the speed set 
>>> point is
>>> reduced with increasing load).  The grid Hz/Gw figure which has been
>>> mentioned is not directly related to generator inertia, where
>>> insignificant energy is stored, it is the aggregate droop setting of the
>>> prime mover governors feeding the grid.  After speed/frequency shift 
>>> (the
>>> governors only measure shaft speed) due to a load change the grid 
>>> control
>>> center adjusts the governor set points to bring the frequency back to
>>> normal.
>>>
>>> Voltage regulation is entirely separate and is done by setting the
>>> reactive power output of sources, again by adjusting set points in real
>>> time over SCADA (or one of the other approved standard comm protocols).
>>> This is a bit complex for a quick explanation but is described in detail
>>> in any decent text covering synchronous generator control.
>>>
>>> Voltage regulation is more likely to be a stability issue than 
>>> frequency.
>>> If you take two widely separated generators or sets of locally 
>>> paralleled
>>> generators at two power plants which are optimally tuned for stand alone
>>> operation and connect them with a long transmission line, voltage will
>>> begin to oscillate due to the time delay in locally detecting changes in
>>> the other plants output.  Detuning the regulators to achieve stability
>>> results in inadequate response to load changes - thus central control of
>>> both plants over SCADA.
>>>
>>> Large generator voltage response time is limited by the L/R time 
>>> constant,
>>> which will be in the 10's of seconds, over a minute for some large 
>>> multi-
>>> pole hydroelectric generators.  Inverters can respond much faster, with
>>> potentially worse stability issues, and dividing power sources into many
>>> small units does not make stability any easier, you still can't set
>>> optimal tuning parameters for widely separated groups of sources which
>>> will be both stable and fast, central control of some percentage of 
>>> source
>>> set points is required.  This problem and it's solution is well 
>>> understood
>>> and the current generation of inverters are designed to allow remote
>>> control of set points.
>>>
>>> In the US more than 2/3 of all solar power is utility owned 10 MW or
>>> larger and all of this is under central grid operator control, so no
>>> stability issues there.
>>>
>>> More intermittent power sources need more batteries, which are being
>>> deployed by utilities as fast as they can be manufactured, being far
>>> cheaper then peaking gas turbines, the most expensive of power sources.
>>>
>>> <https://www.tdworld.com/distributed-energy-resources/energy-storage/ 
>>> news/
>>> 55287560/us-energy-storage-industry-commits-100-billion-investment-in-
>>> american-made-grid-batteries>
>>
>> Wouldn't it be easier to have the entire distribution network using DC?
>>
>> just saying with a glass of wine in my hand :-)
> 
> That's probably correct, but it wouldn't be cheaper. It's probably true 
> that taking DC down to the sub-station level could be cheaper, with 
> today's technology, if you were starting from scratch, but since that 
> kit is already there you would be throwing away a lot of big expensive 
> transformers from the next level up, and replacing them with a lot of 
> big, expensive - if less expensive - inverters. It would take a lot of 
> capital investment to make the switch, and the people who operate the 
> grid are adminstrators rather than entrepreneurs.

I'm just thinking that adding sources to a DC distribution network is 
easier: the voltage just rises or drops. Possibly it autoregulates.

But of course, we have a huge installed system, replacing it would be 
terribly expensive.


Another very wild idea was increasing the frequency to around 600Hz. It 
would make transformers and all coiled things smaller. Planes do this. 
Possibly would also radiate more. And would not help with control.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 02:46 +1000
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> - 2025-05-10 09:58 -0700
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 03:39 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 11:22 -0700
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-10 12:04 -0700
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-11 12:22 +1000
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 16:18 +1000
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-11 20:38 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 05:04 -0700
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-11 07:09 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 01:23 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 01:21 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-12 22:20 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 23:13 +1000
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 23:18 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:28 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 11:33 -0700
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 10:35 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 22:47 +0100
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-13 11:05 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 14:25 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 12:57 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 06:48 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-14 02:14 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-13 17:54 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 19:46 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-14 16:28 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 22:28 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-14 10:19 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:10 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-14 14:37 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-14 19:38 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:46 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:37 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 07:01 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 11:22 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 08:54 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:43 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-16 09:50 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 07:05 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 01:03 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-16 17:30 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 08:56 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 02:17 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-17 02:46 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-18 10:19 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-15 13:02 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-15 20:35 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 13:13 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 17:26 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:40 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 17:06 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:29 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 15:57 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 07:11 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:54 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 16:52 +1000
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 15:58 +1000
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 15:31 +0100
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 12:42 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-12 20:27 +0000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 14:24 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 15:27 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-12 23:25 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-13 13:26 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-13 07:50 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-14 14:16 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:14 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 16:18 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:37 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:43 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 16:19 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:53 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 10:51 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:27 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 07:23 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:55 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 07:12 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 01:14 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-16 19:15 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-17 08:39 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 09:42 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-14 14:35 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:43 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 14:18 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 06:50 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-15 21:37 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:34 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-18 00:28 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 22:25 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-18 09:13 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-18 12:38 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 15:19 -0700
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 14:42 +1000
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 15:48 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 15:36 +0100
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 01:45 +1000
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-12 23:33 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 18:20 -0400
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 02:50 +0200
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 06:58 -0700
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 21:41 -0700
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-10 17:40 +0000
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-10 11:58 -0700
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 16:29 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 14:08 -0400
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:07 +0200
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-14 16:45 -0400
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 02:20 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 11:11 +0100
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:23 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 11:35 -0400
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-15 18:51 +0100
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:05 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 16:07 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:08 -0700

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