Groups > sci.electronics.design > #733331

Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.
Date	2025-05-16 12:53 +0200
Message-ID	<53ijflxv2d.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <0l6fflx9t.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <10040vj$302p5$1@dont-email.me> <4osgflxtup.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <93tgflxuup.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <1004t5q$35au7$2@dont-email.me>

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On 2025-05-15 16:19, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 5/15/25 12:43, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-05-15 12:37, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2025-05-15 08:18, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>> On 15/05/2025 5:14 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-05-14 16:16, Glen Walpert wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 13 May 2025 07:50:36 -0700, Don Y wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>>> Wouldn't it be easier to have the entire distribution network using 
>>>>> DC?
>>>>>
>>>>> just saying with a glass of wine in my hand :-)
>>>>
>>>> That's probably correct, but it wouldn't be cheaper. It's probably 
>>>> true that taking DC down to the sub-station level could be cheaper, 
>>>> with today's technology, if you were starting from scratch, but 
>>>> since that kit is already there you would be throwing away a lot of 
>>>> big expensive transformers from the next level up, and replacing 
>>>> them with a lot of big, expensive - if less expensive - inverters. 
>>>> It would take a lot of capital investment to make the switch, and 
>>>> the people who operate the grid are adminstrators rather than 
>>>> entrepreneurs.
>>>
>>> I'm just thinking that adding sources to a DC distribution network is 
>>> easier: the voltage just rises or drops. Possibly it autoregulates.
>>>
>>> But of course, we have a huge installed system, replacing it would be 
>>> terribly expensive.
>>
>> Thinking again. Would it be possible to have even the rotating mass 
>> generators connect via inverters? I mean, the inverters would inject 
>> power always at the exact frequency no matter what. The voltage could 
>> vary, but the frequency would be stuck.
>>
>> Of course, I know basically nothing of power generation/distribution, 
>> so don't take me too seriously :-)
>>
> 
> The frequency is the signal that tells generators how to adjust
> their power! You *don't* want to interfere with that.
> 
> Individual generators and inverters can't force the frequency.
> They *must* sync to the grid. The frequency is the same all over
> Europe. (Barring small excursions to dynamically adjust the phase
> from place to place. f=dphi/dt.)

I mean changing the paradigm.

Having the entire network fed via synced inverters. Have their frequency 
and phase fixed. It is electronics, this is possible. Never vary the 
frequency nor phase. Factor it out. No more rotating generators, but 
connect them via inverters instead (same as wind generators).

Impossible to do now, it is just a mental exercise. Too expensive.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 02:46 +1000
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> - 2025-05-10 09:58 -0700
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 03:39 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 11:22 -0700
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-10 12:04 -0700
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-11 12:22 +1000
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 16:18 +1000
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-11 20:38 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 05:04 -0700
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-11 07:09 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 01:23 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 01:21 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-12 22:20 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 23:13 +1000
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 23:18 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:28 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 11:33 -0700
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 10:35 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 22:47 +0100
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-13 11:05 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 14:25 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 12:57 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 06:48 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-14 02:14 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-13 17:54 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 19:46 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-14 16:28 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 22:28 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-14 10:19 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:10 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-14 14:37 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-14 19:38 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:46 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:37 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 07:01 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 11:22 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 08:54 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:43 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-16 09:50 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 07:05 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 01:03 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-16 17:30 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 08:56 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 02:17 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-17 02:46 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-18 10:19 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-15 13:02 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-15 20:35 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 13:13 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 17:26 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:40 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 17:06 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:29 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 15:57 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 07:11 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:54 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 16:52 +1000
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 15:58 +1000
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 15:31 +0100
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 12:42 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-12 20:27 +0000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 14:24 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 15:27 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-12 23:25 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-13 13:26 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-13 07:50 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-14 14:16 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:14 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 16:18 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:37 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:43 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 16:19 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:53 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 10:51 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:27 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 07:23 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:55 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 07:12 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 01:14 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-16 19:15 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-17 08:39 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 09:42 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-14 14:35 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:43 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 14:18 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 06:50 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-15 21:37 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:34 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-18 00:28 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 22:25 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-18 09:13 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-18 12:38 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 15:19 -0700
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 14:42 +1000
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 15:48 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 15:36 +0100
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 01:45 +1000
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-12 23:33 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 18:20 -0400
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 02:50 +0200
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 06:58 -0700
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 21:41 -0700
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-10 17:40 +0000
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-10 11:58 -0700
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 16:29 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 14:08 -0400
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:07 +0200
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-14 16:45 -0400
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 02:20 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 11:11 +0100
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:23 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 11:35 -0400
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-15 18:51 +0100
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:05 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 16:07 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:08 -0700

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