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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #733304
| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. |
| Date | 2025-05-15 15:37 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ia7hflxtq3.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink) |
| References | (11 earlier) <3lj92kth9m1cjjib8peq04tta6fecer0bv@4ax.com> <ed6fflx9t.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <023a2k1v735395t0crgdfq36acujgn24gq@4ax.com> <b14ed169-8a1d-5a70-4019-dd6db34285ad@electrooptical.net> <1004nmp$34c0m$2@dont-email.me> |
On 2025-05-15 14:46, Jeroen Belleman wrote: > On 5/15/25 01:38, Phil Hobbs wrote: >> On 2025-05-14 17:37, john larkin wrote: >>> On Wed, 14 May 2025 21:10:06 +0200, "Carlos E.R." >>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2025-05-14 19:19, john larkin wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 13 May 2025 22:28:23 +0200, "Carlos E.R." >>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2025-05-13 18:14, Bill Sloman wrote: >>>>>>> On 13/05/2025 11:48 pm, john larkin wrote: >>>>>>>> On Tue, 13 May 2025 12:57:47 +0200, "Carlos E.R." >>>>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nukes are great, but not if you tear them down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nukes are remarkably expensive, and depressingly inflexible. >>>>>>> Radiation >>>>>>> damage to the structure means that you do have to tear them down >>>>>>> after a >>>>>>> few decades of use, and the radioactive waste starts off very >>>>>>> radioactive, and the longer-lived isotopes have to be managed for >>>>>>> a few >>>>>>> hundred thousand years. >>>>>> >>>>>> And the investors building the stations do not consider the cost of >>>>>> managing the waste for centuries. They leave that part to the >>>>>> government. In Spain, we don't have any long term nuclear waste >>>>>> storage. >>>>>> I think we rent storage in France, so the waste has to be transported >>>>>> there. We have some storage at each station, a large water pool. >>>>> >>>>> The best thing to do with used fuel rods is reprocess them into more >>>>> fuel. >>>> >>>> Something that is expensive and not every country can do. >>> >>> A couple of very remote places in the world could do that. And we'd >>> get lots of fun isotopes too. Can't leave hot rods in a zillion pools >>> forever. >>> >>>> >>>>> When that's not feasible, dig a deep hole and dump it in. Or drop >>>>> barrels of junk into an ocean subduction zone. >>>> >>>> That's simply wrong. >>>> >>>>> It's irrational to store nuclear waste locally. Nuke policy is mostly >>>>> fear driven. And nukes are unpopular in some quarters by people who >>>>> really don't want us to have affordable, safe energy. >>>> >>>> I have a very rational and studied fear of nuclear power. >>> >>> Why? It's very safe when done carefully. >>> >>> The little modular reactors sound cool. >> >> Putting used nuclear fuel someplace deepish underground is important. >> While a nuclear war would be very very bad, surface storage makes it >> much, much worse. >> [...] > > Yes! Now convince the populace and the politicians. > > Jeroen Belleman > <https://chatgpt.com/> What are the pros and cons of storing nuclear waste deep underground? Storing nuclear waste deep underground—typically referred to as **deep geological disposal**—is one of the most researched and widely supported long-term strategies for managing high-level radioactive waste. Here are the **key pros and cons**: --- ## ✅ **Pros of Deep Underground Nuclear Waste Storage** ### 1. **Long-term isolation from biosphere** * **Goal**: Prevent radioactive materials from reaching the environment for thousands to millions of years. * **How**: Waste is stored in stable geological formations (e.g., granite, clay, salt beds) that have been geologically stable for millennia. ### 2. **Passive safety** * No need for constant human oversight or mechanical systems to maintain safety, reducing reliance on future generations. ### 3. **Security from surface threats** * Underground storage is less vulnerable to: * Natural disasters (e.g., earthquakes, wildfires, flooding) * Terrorist attacks or sabotage * Accidental human intrusion ### 4. **Scientific consensus** * Supported by decades of scientific research and endorsed by many international bodies (e.g., IAEA, NEA) as a viable long-term solution. ### 5. **Reduces surface-level storage** * Frees up surface storage space currently used at nuclear power plants, which are not ideal for long-term containment. --- ## ❌ **Cons of Deep Underground Nuclear Waste Storage** ### 1. **High initial cost and complexity** * Requires extensive geological surveys, tunneling, engineering, and long-term planning. * Projects often cost billions and take decades to develop (e.g., Yucca Mountain, Onkalo). ### 2. **Difficult to retrieve waste** * Once buried, accessing the waste for future reprocessing or unforeseen needs becomes very hard or impossible. ### 3. **Political and public opposition** * Local communities often resist becoming host sites due to safety concerns and stigma (“Not In My Backyard”). * Political gridlock can stall or cancel projects despite technical feasibility. ### 4. **Long approval and construction timelines** * Even if technically sound, these projects can take 30–50 years from planning to operation. * Example: Finland’s **Onkalo repository** is the world’s first operational deep geological repository, and it took over 40 years to develop. ### 5. **Uncertain future conditions** * Predicting geological and environmental stability over hundreds of thousands of years involves uncertainties, especially regarding climate change or seismic activity. --- ## Summary Table | Factor | Pros | Cons | | --------------------- | ------------------------------------------------- | ---------------------------------------------------- | | Environmental Impact | Isolates waste from biosphere long-term | Hard to predict geologic changes over millennia | | Safety | Passive safety, less risk of accidents or attacks | Retrieval is difficult if needed | | Economic | Long-term cost savings via passive design | Very high upfront costs | | Social/Political | Can reduce opposition with proper planning | Strong public and political resistance in many areas | | Technical Feasibility | Based on decades of research and trials | Implementation and oversight are complex | --- Let me know if you'd like a visual diagram or case studies (e.g., Finland’s Onkalo or the Yucca Mountain project in the U.S.). -- Cheers, Carlos.
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Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-14 19:38 -0400
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:46 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:37 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 07:01 -0700
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Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-17 02:46 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-18 10:19 -0700
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Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 13:13 -0700
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Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:29 +0200
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Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:37 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:43 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 16:19 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:53 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 10:51 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:27 +1000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 07:23 +0100
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:55 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 07:12 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 01:14 +1000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-16 19:15 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-17 08:39 -0400
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 09:42 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-14 14:35 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:43 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 14:18 +0100
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 06:50 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-15 21:37 +0000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:34 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-18 00:28 +0000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 22:25 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-18 09:13 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-18 12:38 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 15:19 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 14:42 +1000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 15:48 +1000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 15:36 +0100
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 01:45 +1000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-12 23:33 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 18:20 -0400
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 02:50 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 06:58 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 21:41 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-10 17:40 +0000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-10 11:58 -0700
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 16:29 +1000
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 14:08 -0400
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:07 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-14 16:45 -0400
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 02:20 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 11:11 +0100
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:23 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 11:35 -0400
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-15 18:51 +0100
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:05 +0200
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 16:07 +0100
Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:08 -0700
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