Groups > sci.electronics.design > #733277

Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information.
Date	2025-05-14 21:14 +0200
Message-ID	<0l6fflx9t.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <vvtium$18vkn$1@dont-email.me> <vvtovo$1a4th$1@dont-email.me> <WLHUP.255339$v2h6.142714@fx14.iad> <vvvm80$1sf5m$1@dont-email.me> <kB1VP.48755$JRnc.12987@fx37.iad>

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On 2025-05-14 16:16, Glen Walpert wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2025 07:50:36 -0700, Don Y wrote:
> 
>> On 5/13/2025 6:26 AM, Glen Walpert wrote:
>>>> I don't think that using broadcast radio for real time mains grid
>>>> control is a good idea. It would be far too unreliable.
>>>
>>> Point to point RF links have been in use in (mostly hard wired) grid
>>> control SCADA (System Control And Data Acquisition) systems for at
>>> least 30 years, which is when a former employer did some work on a
>>> SCADA upgrade project for the Egyptian Electrical Authority.  A search
>>> on 'SCADA radio link' will turn up several vendors.
>>
>> And they used these to control instantaneous frequency and phase?  Or,
>> just coarse data collection and /supervisory/ control?
> 
> SCADA is used to monitor and control the grid, where control is done in
> real time by adjusting the set points for real and reactive power at all
> controlled power sources.  A small percentage of sources being
> inaccessible degrades control by an insignificant amount.
> 
> Real power is regulated by the prime mover governors, which must be
> operated in droop mode in order to share the load (the speed set point is
> reduced with increasing load).  The grid Hz/Gw figure which has been
> mentioned is not directly related to generator inertia, where
> insignificant energy is stored, it is the aggregate droop setting of the
> prime mover governors feeding the grid.  After speed/frequency shift (the
> governors only measure shaft speed) due to a load change the grid control
> center adjusts the governor set points to bring the frequency back to
> normal.
> 
> Voltage regulation is entirely separate and is done by setting the
> reactive power output of sources, again by adjusting set points in real
> time over SCADA (or one of the other approved standard comm protocols).
> This is a bit complex for a quick explanation but is described in detail
> in any decent text covering synchronous generator control.
> 
> Voltage regulation is more likely to be a stability issue than frequency.
> If you take two widely separated generators or sets of locally paralleled
> generators at two power plants which are optimally tuned for stand alone
> operation and connect them with a long transmission line, voltage will
> begin to oscillate due to the time delay in locally detecting changes in
> the other plants output.  Detuning the regulators to achieve stability
> results in inadequate response to load changes - thus central control of
> both plants over SCADA.
> 
> Large generator voltage response time is limited by the L/R time constant,
> which will be in the 10's of seconds, over a minute for some large multi-
> pole hydroelectric generators.  Inverters can respond much faster, with
> potentially worse stability issues, and dividing power sources into many
> small units does not make stability any easier, you still can't set
> optimal tuning parameters for widely separated groups of sources which
> will be both stable and fast, central control of some percentage of source
> set points is required.  This problem and it's solution is well understood
> and the current generation of inverters are designed to allow remote
> control of set points.
> 
> In the US more than 2/3 of all solar power is utility owned 10 MW or
> larger and all of this is under central grid operator control, so no
> stability issues there.
> 
> More intermittent power sources need more batteries, which are being
> deployed by utilities as fast as they can be manufactured, being far
> cheaper then peaking gas turbines, the most expensive of power sources.
> 
> <https://www.tdworld.com/distributed-energy-resources/energy-storage/news/
> 55287560/us-energy-storage-industry-commits-100-billion-investment-in-
> american-made-grid-batteries>

Wouldn't it be easier to have the entire distribution network using DC?

just saying with a glass of wine in my hand :-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 02:46 +1000
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> - 2025-05-10 09:58 -0700
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 03:39 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 11:22 -0700
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-10 12:04 -0700
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-11 12:22 +1000
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 16:18 +1000
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-11 20:38 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 05:04 -0700
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-11 07:09 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 01:23 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 01:21 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-12 22:20 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-12 23:13 +1000
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 23:18 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:28 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 11:33 -0700
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 10:35 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 22:47 +0100
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-13 11:05 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 14:25 +1000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 12:57 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 06:48 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-14 02:14 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-13 17:54 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 19:46 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-14 16:28 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 22:28 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-14 10:19 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:10 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-14 14:37 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-14 19:38 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:46 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:37 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 07:01 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 11:22 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 08:54 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:43 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-16 09:50 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 07:05 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 01:03 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-16 17:30 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 08:56 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 02:17 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-17 02:46 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-18 10:19 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-15 13:02 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-15 20:35 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 13:13 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 17:26 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:40 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 17:06 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:29 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 15:57 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 07:11 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:54 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 16:52 +1000
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 15:58 +1000
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 15:31 +0100
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 12:42 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-12 20:27 +0000
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 14:24 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 15:27 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-12 23:25 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-13 13:26 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-13 07:50 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-14 14:16 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:14 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-15 16:18 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:37 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:43 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 16:19 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:53 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-15 10:51 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-16 06:27 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 07:23 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 12:55 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-16 07:12 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-17 01:14 +1000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-16 19:15 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-17 08:39 -0400
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 09:42 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-14 14:35 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-15 14:43 +0200
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 14:18 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 06:50 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-15 21:37 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-15 15:34 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-18 00:28 +0000
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-17 22:25 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-18 09:13 -0700
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-18 12:38 -0700
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-12 15:19 -0700
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 14:42 +1000
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 15:48 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 15:36 +0100
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-13 01:45 +1000
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-12 23:33 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 18:20 -0400
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-13 02:50 +0200
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-13 06:58 -0700
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 21:41 -0700
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-10 17:40 +0000
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-10 11:58 -0700
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-11 16:29 +1000
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-12 14:08 -0400
  Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-14 21:07 +0200
    Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-14 16:45 -0400
      Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 02:20 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 11:11 +0100
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-15 12:23 +0200
        Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-15 11:35 -0400
          Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-15 18:51 +0100
            Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:05 +0200
              Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-16 16:07 +0100
                Re: The Spanish Grid Drop-out - recently released information. Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-16 13:08 -0700

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