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Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :)

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On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:03:14 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 17:30:16 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan  
>  wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:10:34 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:
> >> > I know very well that lucid dreaming can seem as 'stable' and
> >> > real-seeming as the daily world. I've experienced that many times.
> >> > That dude seemed shocked by it, as if it was unusual for him.
> >>
> >> ### - fact is high lucidity is a rarity amongst dild-doers unless you're
> >> ex-castaneda apparently heh, and this mainly because you seem to be the
> >> only one who can (maybe) dild with full lucidity, we only have your word
> >> for this + i haven't actually met any others in all this time claiming
> >> anything similar...
> >
> > Aside from sleep lab experiments, we have only a person's word
> > for ANYTHING they experience in LD, in both DILD and WILD.
> > This includes you, bub.
> 
> ### - smile, am just saying i just haven't met (nor spoken to) 'anyone'  
> (other than you) claiming 'full' lucidity in dilds as being common is all

Grin, I told you long ago that I did know several other people
among Castaneda's students - and personally knew two people well -
one male and one female - who were expert at both WILD and DILD.
Neither person regarded either method as being "better" (although it's
great to be good at both methods if you're into LD). Neither person
ever made a big 'issue' out of WILD vs. DILD at all.

Indeed, YOU are the first person I ever encountered who made a
huge issue out of it, and to this day I think that's stupid. :)
Castaneda himself didn't do that either. He was always more like...
well, how a person does dreaming is personal to them.

I even went to a workshop once back in the late 1990's where everyone
present sat down and attempted WILD over and over in a big group.
I wasn't able to get into dreaming during the workshop (in fact,
the methods used were highly distracting to me and I personally
couldn't have entered dreaming that way in a million years) but
several people there did (they said), including one of my friends
who was very good at WILD. (That was a workshop by Hank Wesselman
in 1997.)

You act like you think you're the only one who ever does it.
Wesselman was doing it back in the 90s. Castaneda gave us a few
methods for WILD too back then. They didn't work for me,
personally, but... he did give us a few.

  
> whereas most people usually remark just how clear & vivid everything is  
> when experiencing a WILD for the first t ime 'compared' to a dild, which  
> then equals only 'you' versus quite a few peeps by now mentioning an  
> unexpected lucidity when WILDing (is often seen/remarked-on too when peeps  
> use wbtb to lucid dream and unwittingly WILD but think it's a dild...)

That's almost a non-sequitur. They're probably just unsure whether
they went back to sleep or not. And it probably doesn't even matter,
since if they manage to enter LD soon after going to back sleep then
they're still in the early non-REM stages of sleep (I've done that
many times). I have concluded, after reexamining my own experiences
over the years that there probably is a big difference in the
'stability' of dreaming scenes depending on whether you go lucid in
non-REM or in REM.  And THAT is almost certainly why you believe
there's such a big difference between DILD and WILD. It's really the
big difference non-REM and REM. WILD happens right on the edge of
nREM-1, so the dream scenes are more 'stable'.

And I get that, but I learned to maintain lucidity in both states.
Because I worked hard to do it. The REM state is weirder and less
stable (also often much more interesting), but if you're determined
to stay lucid, you totally can in either state. There may even be
subtle differences between NREM1 and NREM2 LD. But I learned using
methods that forced me to hyper-monitor the state of my awareness
and also made me tremendously determined, so I learned that it
doesn't matter how 'stable' dream scenes are or what they morph
into, you can still maintain lucidity if you work hard at it.

The only stage I'm not sure about is deep sleep. I doubt if anyone
but maybe some friggin' monks somewhere can enter LD from the deepest
sleep stage (Delta stage). And I don't think they'd get any big
'prize' even if they could do it (it's just another brain state). :)


> >> added to which dilds can't be turned on/off like WILDs can, dilds are a
> >> completely random affair...
> >>
> >> so in truth you're merely trolling :)
> >
> > Apparently, you don't know what the word trolling means.
> > I made a clear, meaningful statement on dreaming in general.
> > In no valid sense of the word was it trolling.
> 
> ### - heh i meant trolling in the sense of you deliberately making  
> negative-type comments in an otherwise fairly positive thread in order to  
> merely mar the tone of the thing and to perhaps pull it off into an  
> argument (the uglier the better from your pov), something you've always  
> personally done but also loudly bellyache about like there's no tomorrow  
> whenever someone does it to you? (+ that's also how i know you know you're  
> doing it quite deliberately too... you're trolling!) :)

I'm just trying to present a more well-rounded view of dreaming.
And maybe get you to be more objective about your obsession.


> > So what if DILD can't be 'turned on or off'? Neither can your
> > heartbeat, or your appetite, or your sex drive, or even your
> > curiosity. (And besides, to some degree it can be turned on, using
> > your *intent* to do it.)
> 
> ### - no, there's no conscious switch to dilds thus it's a purely  
> chuck-it-and-chance-it technique that may or may not even work;

You keep refusing to even look at something that is simple
and useful. And as it happens, it is a function of will. :)

When you consciously decide to do something, you still don't have
FULL conscious control over how it goes. That's why people may
decide to stop smoking or drinking like 20 times and still fail.
However, if they keep intending it and they also derail some of
the components of the habits that keep them relapsing, they can
eventually succeed, since after many days their unconscious mind
internalizes the goal and they succeed, although they may not
be fully aware of how they finally did it. That's how will works.

New Scientist recently put it like this. They said there are really
TWO steps to breaking any habit. Step 1 is to "derail" some normal
components of the habit in order to "reprogram your unconscious",
and Step 2 is to adopt other cues to "trigger a more desirable
habit". In the case of LD, the undesired "habit" is remaining
unconscious through all periods of dreaming. New Scientist says:

"Repetition is the key. It can take anywhere between 15 and 254 days
to form a new habit." New Scientist also recommends trying to break
a habit while you're outside your normal environment.

They're talking about: how to consciously change unconscious habits.

[Castaneda heads may find it interesting to note that all of this
advice is practically identical to how Castaneda claimed 'don Juan'
broke some of his own major habits like smoking. So... lookie here,
CC was actually right about a few things, and this is one of them.]

In this case, our desired new habit is to go lucid and maintain lucidity.

Looking back on how I learned to do LD long ago, I did this exactly.
I derailed some of my habits using several of Castaneda's methods,
all while *intending* to trigger a new desired habit of becoming
aware during my dreams and doing specific activities IN dreaming
to maintain that awareness. It did, in fact, take me somewhere
around 14 or 15 days or so to first go lucid and perform the desired
dreaming activities. By repeatedly *intending* to do it, I managed
to reprogram my unconscious mind to assist with the task. It worked.

I would never know when I would 'go aware' in dreaming. But at
some point my unconscious would allow my conscious mind to 'surface'.
Because I *intended* for that to happen over and over.

The unconscious mind is handling your ordinary dreaming anyway,
so if you can get it 'on your side' by continually intending what
you want: "to wake up in dreams" eventually it will help you do
that and you will wake up in your dreams. Then you must work at
maintaining that lucidity while dreaming. Intent works at both a
conscious and an unconscious level. That's how DILD works.

It's not that big a deal to succeed at it. You say "there is
no conscious switch". Yes and no. There is conscious intent that
after being maintained for days gets internalized by the unconscious.

Similarly, when I decided I wasn't all that interested in dreaming
anymore, I *dropped* that intent and largely stopped focusing on it.
LD still happens to me some just naturally since I did it for
so long and got good at it.

It's really not that different from going on a reasonable diet.
You intend to stop eating unhealthy stuff, you derail the habits
of making unhealthy stuff available, and then you start eating more
healthy stuff all the time. But you have to intend to stick to it,
and again... "Repetition is the key. It can take anywhere between
15 and 254 days to form a new habit."

In the case of diet, since we eat every day multiple times a day,
it can take *months* to really change your mind at both the conscious
and unconscious levels to where you eat more healthy all the time.

It's not really that different with lucid dreaming or anything else.


> the addon's etc... whereas WILDs are the complete opposite, and only  
> actually function correctly/fully when quite consciously induced... big  
> difference! - plus highlights a quite obvious advantage that WILDs then  
> have over dilds from the off... a much easier and far more straightforward  
> method of lucid dreaming that had been basically shelved/overlooked for  
> all the wrong reasons... until now :)
> 
> smile, you plead ignorance as that merely allows you to continue to  
> 'pretend' to debate, or do i have to remind you of your own initial  
> thoughts on this very matter that you then went to all the trouble of  
> trolling my book with under the guise of being a balanced review??  
> (grinz...) :D
> 
> quote:
> "The author does make clear that the major advantage of WILD is the  
> ability to do lucid dreaming virtually at will, and to remain aware  
> throughout the entire process, and that is truly an advantage."
> 
> so... 'there' you DO at least 'comprehend' what kind an advantage such a  
> thing 'might' represent, but now today you totally don't?? riiiight...

Yeah, I stand by every single word I wrote in that review you keep
whining about over and over. :) Yes, being able to enter directly
into dreaming is an advantage. But that doesn't matter if you are
no good at it. And most people aren't.

I am pretty good at relaxing. I am good at getting all kinds of
hypnagogia, and even at examining the details of hypnagogia.
The step I've only managed to do a few times is to consciously
succeed at 'getting pulled' all the way into dreaming by it.
It's just not easy for me to make that jump. I've done it a
handful of times, and it's cool when it happens, but... most of
the time for me it doesn't happen. I bet many people have a
similar difficulty. And I can definitely say that I could achieve
full lucidity in either DILD or WILD. WILD was not a noticeably
'special' state of LD, not for me. It was a good clear LD state,
but... for me, nothing special.

 
> that's trolling! (or possibly just alzheimers heh, who knows)
> 
> :)

You don't even listen. You just want to argue with everyone.
Because you're obsessed with something.

.

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Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-10 21:27 +0100
  sleeping & dreaming feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 13:36 -0700
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      Re: sleeping & dreaming feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 14:18 -0700
  Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-10 22:41 +0100
    gas yourself ahole feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 09:19 -0700
      Re: gas yourself ahole slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-13 18:19 +0100
    Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-15 11:39 +0100
      Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 10:50 -0700
        Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-15 21:11 +0100
          Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 17:18 -0700
            Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-16 04:10 +0100
              Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 09:30 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-16 21:03 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 15:15 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 16:10 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 02:47 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 15:09 +0100
                ADA feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 07:46 -0700
                Re: ADA slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 18:16 +0100
                and in the end ........... feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 11:30 -0700
                Re: and in the end ........... slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 20:41 +0100
                Re: and in the end ........... "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:38 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:33 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-18 03:42 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 13:02 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-19 01:30 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 17:55 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-19 02:25 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 21:05 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Donovan" <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 23:07 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-19 12:02 +0100
                the horses are at the starting gate feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 07:35 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 12:00 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-19 21:39 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 13:57 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-20 08:52 +0100
                good day at the track feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 08:05 -0700
                Re: good day at the track slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-20 20:19 +0100
                Re: good day at the track feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 12:32 -0700
                let it ride bitch feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 12:45 -0700
                Re: let it ride bitch slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-20 21:12 +0100
                Re: let it ride bitch feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 21:17 -0700
                Re: let it ride bitch slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 09:55 +0100
                Re: let it ride bitch feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 07:28 -0700
                Re: let it ride bitch slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 16:03 +0100
                Re: good day at the track slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-20 20:56 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 11:55 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 21:48 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 15:00 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-21 23:13 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 15:30 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 23:57 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-22 08:24 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 14:15 -0700
                fucking wake up feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 16:24 -0700
                Re: fucking wake up "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 17:07 -0700
                Re: fucking wake up slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-19 01:42 +0100
                Re: fucking wake up "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 17:56 -0700
                Re: fucking wake up slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-19 02:06 +0100
                Re: fucking wake up thang ornerythinchus <thangolossus@gmail.com> - 2018-09-06 10:17 +0800
      Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-15 22:22 +0100

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