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Groups > alt.dreams.castaneda > #18477

Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :)

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On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 7:42:01 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 23:33:37 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan  
> wrote:

Speaking of LaBerge, Slider says:
> BIG mistake! - huge! - WILDs didn't fit... the theory!
> 
> so he discarded 'em instead of reexamining the theory...

No, he didn't. He repeatedly included WILD in his analyses.
I've pointed out already how LaBerge found that WILDs resulted
in 3 or 4 times as many "seeming OBEs" as DILDs, for example. 
And that finding is right in line with my own theory.

Here's a quote from a 2014 Masters thesis that even touts WILD:
Lucid dreaming: A Wake-Initiated-Lucid-Dream (WILD) approach

"The discussion has shifted into what techniques are best for
training this ability, but everyone is different, and lucid dreaming
is no exception to this rule, as pointed out by Synder and
Gackenbach (1988). For example, DeGracia, “has 114 recorded lucid
dreams of which 43% were WILDs and 56% were DILDs. In contrast,
only 8% of LaBerge’s and Degracia’s (2000) dissertation sample
of 388 recorded lucid dreams were WILDs, a significantly lower
proportion” (p. 283). These numbers illustrate the profound impact
that different styles and induction techniques can have on one’s
lucid dreaming..."

[In the quote above, I have corrected DeGracia's name.]

So in that dissertation work, Laberge's sample included 8% WILDs.
He did not "discard it". What I wonder about is why I never hear
you mention other people's work, like DeGracia's? Did you do
ANY research when you wrote your own book on WILD? DeGracia was
really big on WILD.

Then again, he takes kind of a... wilder approach to WILD. :)
Here are his collected writings on 'astral projection' and 'OOBE':
http://www.dondeg.com/metaphysics/do_obe.pdf

 
> > And he was totally right not to make a big deal out of it.
> 
> ### - ahahaha is that right??
> 
> riiiiiight... :D
> 
> and well, we're gonna actually find that out now innit!
> 
> 'coz when 'enough' peeps are doing/using it the demand will arise to find  
> out!
> 
> so all ya gots to do now is live long enough to wait and see :)
> 
> point being: the question is still pending, it hasn't actually 'been'  
> answered yet...

I'm not sure exactly what you think "the question" even is?
You say weird stuff such as that you think WILD may not even be
dreaming. As near as I can tell you don't have a testable theory. :)

Here's one fact I can tell from looking at existing lab studies.
The physiological state measured in the sleep labs for LD and for
'seeming OBE' is identical. LaBerge found that. Not only that,
but since LaBerge defined WILD as being LD *initiated* in waking
yet *continuing* in REM... how do you feel about the strong
possibility that all you're really doing w/ WILD is intentionally
initiating lucid REM states starting from a full waking state? :)

Based on the data I've seen, that's the strongest possibility.

 
> and this no-matter what you just so 'happen' to currently... 'believe' :)
> 
> (laberge 'seems' like a decent-enough chap, decent enough to maybe even  
> admit his error when confronted with it, we'll see... what *you'll* do if  
> he does, however, is far less certain haha; you'll prolly go and shoot-up  
> los vegas or summat lol...)
> 
> lol what WILL you do if i AM right jeremy? how WILL you handle it??

Right about what, exactly? I think I've told you at least 3 times
already that I don't care at all if people do WILD; I think it's fine.
I even stated in a published review that it's an advantage for those
able to do it (albeit a nothing burger for those who find it hard).
So what do you think you're "right" about? You don't even have a
coherent theory that I've ever heard succinctly stated.

To me, WILD is simply another method of initiating lucid dreaming.
So I've never had any problem with it - I just think it's difficult
for most people to do. I also don't think LD is the be all and end all
of life, period. Otoh, you act like you think WILD is something...
WAY MORE than just lucid dreaming, but you never say what.

 
> just how 'much' would it fuck you up if am right! :)))
> 
> and will you take a bet on it!

Right about WHAT? :) My theory can be simply stated as:

"The stability of lucid dreaming is strongly affected by the
sleep stage in which it is initiated, but full lucidity
in dreaming can be attained and maintained regardless of
the initiation method used."

So there's my theory in a nutshell.
Now... what the fuck even IS your theory? 
At least tell me that before I say if I want to "bet" on it. :)

And btw, it never 'fucks me up' at all when evidence is made
available for what is conclusively correct. It never does.
 
.

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Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-10 21:27 +0100
  sleeping & dreaming feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 13:36 -0700
    Re: sleeping & dreaming slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-10 22:08 +0100
      Re: sleeping & dreaming feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 14:18 -0700
  Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-10 22:41 +0100
    gas yourself ahole feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 09:19 -0700
      Re: gas yourself ahole slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-13 18:19 +0100
    Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-15 11:39 +0100
      Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 10:50 -0700
        Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-15 21:11 +0100
          Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-15 17:18 -0700
            Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-16 04:10 +0100
              Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 09:30 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-16 21:03 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 15:15 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 16:10 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 02:47 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 15:09 +0100
                ADA feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 07:46 -0700
                Re: ADA slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 18:16 +0100
                and in the end ........... feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 11:30 -0700
                Re: and in the end ........... slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-17 20:41 +0100
                Re: and in the end ........... "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:38 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:33 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-18 03:42 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 13:02 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-19 01:30 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 17:55 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-19 02:25 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 21:05 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Donovan" <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 23:07 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-19 12:02 +0100
                the horses are at the starting gate feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 07:35 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 12:00 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-19 21:39 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 13:57 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-20 08:52 +0100
                good day at the track feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 08:05 -0700
                Re: good day at the track slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-20 20:19 +0100
                Re: good day at the track feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 12:32 -0700
                let it ride bitch feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 12:45 -0700
                Re: let it ride bitch slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-20 21:12 +0100
                Re: let it ride bitch feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 21:17 -0700
                Re: let it ride bitch slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 09:55 +0100
                Re: let it ride bitch feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 07:28 -0700
                Re: let it ride bitch slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 16:03 +0100
                Re: good day at the track slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-20 20:56 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 11:55 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 21:48 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 15:00 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-21 23:13 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 15:30 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-21 23:57 +0100
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-22 08:24 -0700
                Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 14:15 -0700
                fucking wake up feewilly <allreadydun@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 16:24 -0700
                Re: fucking wake up "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 17:07 -0700
                Re: fucking wake up slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-19 01:42 +0100
                Re: fucking wake up "Jeremy H. Denisovan" <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 17:56 -0700
                Re: fucking wake up slider <slider@anashram.org> - 2018-08-19 02:06 +0100
                Re: fucking wake up thang ornerythinchus <thangolossus@gmail.com> - 2018-09-06 10:17 +0800
      Re: conformation/validation? absolutely! :) slider <slider@anashram.com> - 2018-08-15 22:22 +0100

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