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Re: Can a Machine become self-aware?

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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I see, you one of 'those' that post links that you yourself don't
read...


"Mirror tests" have been done on chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and
magpies.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=%5B39%5D-,Non%2Dhuman%20animals,-%5Bedit%5D



German people are sooo lazy they take more sick days and any other euro
country!


Are you fat too?

 


Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>
> >> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> wrote or quoted:
> >> >> >> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware?
> >> >> >> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >  Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the
> >> >> >> >  entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from
> >> >> >> >  the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >  If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self-
> >> >> >> >  aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else
> >> >> >> >  is self-aware.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Keep it simple.
> >> >> >> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving.
> >> >> >> Its purpose is likely communication.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream.
> >> >> >> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice.
> >> >> >> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc.
> >> >> >> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'.
> >> >> >> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter'
> >> >> >> and the monitoring system then repeats ,
> >> >> >> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory).
> >> >> >> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'.
> >> >> >> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave.
> >> >> >> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux.
> >> >> >> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is.
> >> >> >> Who are you?
> >> >> >> I am peter .
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells.
> >> >> >> Add a camera, object recognition..
> >> >> >> Ask Peter 'Who am I?'
> >> >> >> The answer will be  you name.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Who are you?
> >> >> >>  I am Peter.
> >> >> >> Peter How's you battery level?
> >> >> >>  20% and falling.
> >> >> >>   I need  recharge
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> beep
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Monkies
> >> >> >gorrilas
> >> >> >chimpanzees
> >> >> >dogs
> >> >> >cats
> >> >> >elephants
> >> >> >ants
> >> >> >insects
> >> >> >birds
> >> >> >fishes
> >> >> >have absolutely no self-awareness.
> >> >>
> >> >> That is not correct!
> >> >> I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV.
> >> >> There is also stuff on youtube.
> >> >> No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires'
> >> >> There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels
> >> >> (that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Pattern Recognition is not self-awarness...
> >>
> >> True, self aWARness is what precedent trumpy is into
> >
> >
> >I see, JAN! You're a DemocRAT...and have trump derange syndrome (TDS)
> >poor thing...there is no hope for you.
> 
> I know, no,, I'm no demon_rat.
>  What are we? What is in our system that makes what we become? All predetermined?
> Just some code:
>   Scientists reprogram ant behavior using brain molecules
>   Penn's Shelley Berger and colleagues explored the genetic basis of labor distribution in communal-dwelling species and discovered that pathways dating back hundreds of millions of years are conserved across animal kingdoms. Their findings offer fun
>  Date:
>   June 25, 2025
>  Source:
>   University of Pennsylvania
>  Summary:
>   Leafcutter ants live in highly organized colonies where every ant has a job, and now researchers can flip those jobs like a switch.
>   By manipulating just two neuropeptides, scientists can turn defenders into nurses or gardeners into leaf harvesters.
>   These same molecular signals echo in naked mole-rats, revealing a deep evolutionary link in how complex societies function, even across species.
>   The study also teases out a possible connection to insulin and longevity, hinting at new frontiers in understanding human behavior and lifespan.
>     https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250625012443.htm
> 
> Anyways, my thing seems to be curiosity, I have designed electronic stuff for army, navy, space, broadcasting, medical, what not.
> In all cases you have to get into the stuff your design is used for, work with those people.
> Always curiosity is making me want to look.
> But I have done maintenance and fault finding too.
> 
> As to demon-rats, I do believe a bit more in a more structured system,
> for example in the demon-rat system is like you would go to a local bar to ask how to design your next stuff...
> In a demon-rat system people select their leaders by majority vote, sometimes what comes out is a senile old man, sometimes an egomaniac YouWitz genocide using Russian agent like trumpy.
>  History .. US debt ever growing, US just stealing Russian stuff, dollar in free fall without parachute..
> Wrote some financial software too, did a financial training many years ago, tried option trading..
> Have George Soros's book 'The Alchemy of Finance'
>  https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/financial/index.html
> There is more of course,:
>  https://panteltje.nl/index.html
> 
> As to back to systems: China is doing quite good .
> Soon they will be on Mars with good Chinese restaurants !
> 
> Long before Elan and his exploding rockets...
> He has gone downhill ever since he 'democratically' had a vote if he should buy twitter,
> BIG mistake.
> Supporting trumpy was his next big mistake..
> He had good engineers in SpaceX, but has his behavior now make them leave or adapt to his 'way'?
> Or were they perhaps illegal aliens now deported?
> 
> >
> >>
> >> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >any bird brain can tell you dat...Jan!
> >>
> >> Here a bit about the meaning of the word self-awareness:
> >>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
> >
> >
> >WIKIPEDIA???? Anyone can edit Wikipedia! It's the confimation bias
> >website for scientists.
> 
> Na, I have once added some stuff there, purely technical,.
> Wikipedia is one of the greatest things we have, that and google.
> 
> >It's a website for frauds.
> >
> >Try editing Webster's dictionary...
> >
> >
> >So, using your fruadalent wiki website...
> >a gorilla sees a red dot in the mirror, in a place
> >he never saw a red dot..
> >
> >thats? self-awareness????
> 
> I was referring to the 'Mirror neurons'
> <quote>
>  Researchers are investigating which part of the brain allows people to be self-aware
>  and how people are biologically programmed to be self-aware.
>  V.S. Ramachandran speculates that mirror neurons may provide the neurological basis of human self-awareness.[4]
>  In an essay written for Edge.org in 2009, Ramachandran gave the following explanation:
>   These neurons can not only help simulate other people's behavior but can be turned 'inward'
>   —as it were—to create second-order representations or meta-representations of your own earlier brain processes.
>   This could be the neural basis of introspection, and of the reciprocity of self awareness and other awareness.
>   There is obviously a chicken-or-egg question here as to which evolved first, but...
>   The main point is that the two co-evolved, mutually enriching each other to create the mature representation of self that characterizes modern humans."[5]
> <end quote>
> 
> So very simple basically.
> Not hard to code at all.
> 
> AI is much of a hype sold today.
> As is fusion power.
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >> There are many more cases
> >> >>
> >> >> As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing),
> >> >> has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it)
> >> >> Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com:
> >> >>   Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered
> >> >>  Date:
> >> >>   June 23, 2025
> >> >>  Source:
> >> >>   Universiteit van Amsterdam
> >> >>  Summary:
> >> >>   Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through
> >> >>   different environments
> >> >>   —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought.
> >> >>   These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually
> >> >>   present.
> >> >>   In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that
> >> >>   humans
> >> >>   naturally grasp.
> >> >>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm
> >> >>
> >> >> It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity.
> >> >>
> >> >> Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system
> >> >> An anecdote:
> >> >> in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source..
> >> >> Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out.
> >> >> In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper,
> >> >> the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop.
> >> >> It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps).
> >> >> Its all so simple.
> >> >> Its all too beautiful :-)
> >> >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU
> >> >> Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic,
> >> >> No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies.
> >> >> Me, a neural net.
> >> >> And crows?
> >> >> I still feed those.
> >>
> >> Just some other cells monitoring more basics ones and the memories build up in those.
> >>
> >> Maybe you think in english ?
> >> Birdies think in pictures and sounds, use memories too, no difference.
> >>
> >> It is an interesting subject, how long before we have small bots that are smarter than us?
> >> And then one big EMP kills all?
> >>
> >> Life and life forms is an interesting subject too:
> >>  Mojave lichen defies death rays—could life thrive on distant exoplanets?
> >>  Lichen from the Mojave Desert can survive, and replicate, under levels of extreme solar radiation found on Earth-like planets
> >>  in other solar systems.
> >>  Date:
> >>  June 24, 2025
> >>  Source:
> >>   Desert Research Institute
> >>  Summary:
> >>   Lichen from the Mojave Desert has stunned scientists by surviving months of lethal UVC radiation,
> >>   suggesting life could exist on distant planets orbiting volatile stars.
> >>   The secret? A microscopic “sunscreen” layer that protects their vital cells—even though Earth’s atmosphere already
> >>   filters out such rays.
> >>    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250624224813.htm
> >
> >
> >That which you believe is "self-awarness"...
> >according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion.
> >
> >In other words, 'self-awarness' is a delusion.
> >
> >A machine cannot be self-aware because humans have no self-awarness!
> >It's only an illusion.
> >
> >
> >A Jan by any other name...
> >
> >is a machine
> >with a very
> >strong dellusion of
> >self...awareness.
> >
> >
> >Your warm  :-) is a mockery.
> >
> >
> >I just looked
> >in mirror
> >and there is
> >a red dot
> >on my forehead...
> >therefore I am.
> 
> Many in India have dots on their foreheads..
>  What does it mean if an Indian has a dot on their forehead?
>  The word “bindi” comes from the Sanskrit word “bindu,”meaning “dot” or “point.”
>  But it's not just any dot—it holds deep significance in Indian traditions.
>  In many cultures, it represents spiritual awakening and is connected to the “third eye,” the center of wisdom and intuition.
> 
> Anyways I have no dot, but I hope yours helps you.
> 
> I think if I was born in these days I would like to build my own Dino.
> Expect the 'build your own dino kits' on sale in Walmart any day now :-)
> 
> Build your own preCident???
> 
> My suggestion to you is: code some machine experiment.

-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

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Thread

Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-14 12:37 -0700
  Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-15 07:02 +0000
    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-06-15 09:43 +0200
    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (Bertitaylor) - 2025-06-15 07:59 +0000
      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-15 13:10 +0000
        Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (Bertitaylor) - 2025-06-15 14:18 +0000
  Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-06-21 16:28 +0000
    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-06-21 18:19 +0000
      Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-22 07:16 +0000
        Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-22 11:48 -0700
          Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-24 07:20 +0000
            Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-24 13:11 -0700
              Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-25 06:24 +0000
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-25 12:01 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-26 08:11 +0000
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-26 10:34 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-27 05:18 +0000
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-26 22:39 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-06-26 22:45 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-06-28 07:47 +0000
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-01 07:51 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-07-02 06:41 +0000
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-02 10:56 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? squalk <sq@net.inv> - 2025-07-02 20:03 +0100
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-02 13:12 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? squalk <sq@net.inv> - 2025-07-02 21:21 +0100
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-07-02 15:30 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-07-03 20:06 +0200
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-07-03 20:04 +0200
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-07-03 08:24 +0000
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2025-07-03 08:37 +0000
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-07-07 22:03 -0700
                Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-07-03 20:01 +0200
    Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-06-21 14:43 -0700

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