Path: csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: The Starmaker Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity,sci.physics Subject: Re: Can a Machine become self-aware? Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 10:34:13 -0700 Organization: The Starmaker Organization Lines: 308 Message-ID: <685D8495.16DB@ix.netcom.com> References: <684DCF74.4FB4@ix.netcom.com> <1038akn$14dra$1@solani.org> <68584FE2.552B@ix.netcom.com> <103djju$16uqt$1@solani.org> <685B067C.1898@ix.netcom.com> <103g4mv$197a6$1@solani.org> <685C4775.69C@ix.netcom.com> <103ivam$19llk$1@solani.org> Reply-To: starmaker@ix.netcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:34:12 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="e1e8fc67a92036ce88659a0c045cec7a"; logging-data="3767980"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX185RMwQrkWb9yhqf/6xm32DgepHP5PHU7g=" Cancel-Lock: sha1:D76cvC8uz5hHilrN1zZSvAIpbBI= X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 250626-2, 06/26/2025), Outbound message X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; U) Xref: csiph.com sci.physics.relativity:664576 sci.physics:893588 I see, you one of 'those' that post links that you yourself don't read... "Mirror tests" have been done on chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and magpies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#:~:text=%5B39%5D-,Non%2Dhuman%20animals,-%5Bedit%5D German people are sooo lazy they take more sick days and any other euro country! Are you fat too? Jan Panteltje wrote: > > >Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> > >> >Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >anthk wrote or quoted: > >> >> >> >>On 2025-06-14, The Starmaker wrote: > >> >> >> >>>Can a Machine become self-aware? > >> >> >> >>We are part of the universe, and we are self-aware. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Self-wareness is an experience that depends on being the > >> >> >> > entity that experiences it, so it cannot be observed from > >> >> >> > the outside and therefore also not be expressed in words. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > If you are self-aware, you probably know that you are self- > >> >> >> > aware, but you cannot know for sure whether something else > >> >> >> > is self-aware. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Keep it simple. > >> >> >> In all the 'neurons' or nerve cells, some monitor what other cells do as system to keep life moving. > >> >> >> Its purpose is likely communication. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> When a new born baby is hungry, or feels pain it will scream. > >> >> >> The monitor cells issue a trigger to the voice. > >> >> >> Almost the same as the reaction to pain reflex when you burn your finger etc. > >> >> >> Those monitoring calls are the 'I' as in 'I am'. > >> >> >> We TEACH the kinds who they are, YOU are 'Peter' > >> >> >> and the monitoring system then repeats , > >> >> >> this 'knowledge' ever grows (memory). > >> >> >> IIRC it is build mostly in the frontal cortex, part of our 'world view'. > >> >> >> You can make it 'learn' with a few lines of code in the sunscreen example I gave. > >> >> >> Voice (word) recognition libraries plenty for for example Linux. > >> >> >> After telling it his name is 'Peter' ask it who it is. > >> >> >> Who are you? > >> >> >> I am peter . > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Add a bit more stuff and it will fool many here :-) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> But basically it is just a monitoring circuit for the cells. > >> >> >> Add a camera, object recognition.. > >> >> >> Ask Peter 'Who am I?' > >> >> >> The answer will be you name. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Who are you? > >> >> >> I am Peter. > >> >> >> Peter How's you battery level? > >> >> >> 20% and falling. > >> >> >> I need recharge > >> >> >> > >> >> >> beep > >> >> > > >> >> >Monkies > >> >> >gorrilas > >> >> >chimpanzees > >> >> >dogs > >> >> >cats > >> >> >elephants > >> >> >ants > >> >> >insects > >> >> >birds > >> >> >fishes > >> >> >have absolutely no self-awareness. > >> >> > >> >> That is not correct! > >> >> I watched several programs about animals and their behavior here on German TV. > >> >> There is also stuff on youtube. > >> >> No only are these animals self-ware, they are also aware about what we want, our 'desires' > >> >> There is a video on youtube about a girl hat feeds crows every day, the crows started bringing her pieces of shiny jewels > >> >> (that they likely steal elsewhere) when the crows figured she liked that, as 'reward' for the food! > >> > > >> > > >> >Pattern Recognition is not self-awarness... > >> > >> True, self aWARness is what precedent trumpy is into > > > > > >I see, JAN! You're a DemocRAT...and have trump derange syndrome (TDS) > >poor thing...there is no hope for you. > > I know, no,, I'm no demon_rat. > What are we? What is in our system that makes what we become? All predetermined? > Just some code: > Scientists reprogram ant behavior using brain molecules > Penn's Shelley Berger and colleagues explored the genetic basis of labor distribution in communal-dwelling species and discovered that pathways dating back hundreds of millions of years are conserved across animal kingdoms. Their findings offer fun > Date: > June 25, 2025 > Source: > University of Pennsylvania > Summary: > Leafcutter ants live in highly organized colonies where every ant has a job, and now researchers can flip those jobs like a switch. > By manipulating just two neuropeptides, scientists can turn defenders into nurses or gardeners into leaf harvesters. > These same molecular signals echo in naked mole-rats, revealing a deep evolutionary link in how complex societies function, even across species. > The study also teases out a possible connection to insulin and longevity, hinting at new frontiers in understanding human behavior and lifespan. > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250625012443.htm > > Anyways, my thing seems to be curiosity, I have designed electronic stuff for army, navy, space, broadcasting, medical, what not. > In all cases you have to get into the stuff your design is used for, work with those people. > Always curiosity is making me want to look. > But I have done maintenance and fault finding too. > > As to demon-rats, I do believe a bit more in a more structured system, > for example in the demon-rat system is like you would go to a local bar to ask how to design your next stuff... > In a demon-rat system people select their leaders by majority vote, sometimes what comes out is a senile old man, sometimes an egomaniac YouWitz genocide using Russian agent like trumpy. > History .. US debt ever growing, US just stealing Russian stuff, dollar in free fall without parachute.. > Wrote some financial software too, did a financial training many years ago, tried option trading.. > Have George Soros's book 'The Alchemy of Finance' > https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/financial/index.html > There is more of course,: > https://panteltje.nl/index.html > > As to back to systems: China is doing quite good . > Soon they will be on Mars with good Chinese restaurants ! > > Long before Elan and his exploding rockets... > He has gone downhill ever since he 'democratically' had a vote if he should buy twitter, > BIG mistake. > Supporting trumpy was his next big mistake.. > He had good engineers in SpaceX, but has his behavior now make them leave or adapt to his 'way'? > Or were they perhaps illegal aliens now deported? > > > > >> > >> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >any bird brain can tell you dat...Jan! > >> > >> Here a bit about the meaning of the word self-awareness: > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness > > > > > >WIKIPEDIA???? Anyone can edit Wikipedia! It's the confimation bias > >website for scientists. > > Na, I have once added some stuff there, purely technical,. > Wikipedia is one of the greatest things we have, that and google. > > >It's a website for frauds. > > > >Try editing Webster's dictionary... > > > > > >So, using your fruadalent wiki website... > >a gorilla sees a red dot in the mirror, in a place > >he never saw a red dot.. > > > >thats? self-awareness???? > > I was referring to the 'Mirror neurons' > > Researchers are investigating which part of the brain allows people to be self-aware > and how people are biologically programmed to be self-aware. > V.S. Ramachandran speculates that mirror neurons may provide the neurological basis of human self-awareness.[4] > In an essay written for Edge.org in 2009, Ramachandran gave the following explanation: > These neurons can not only help simulate other people's behavior but can be turned 'inward' > —as it were—to create second-order representations or meta-representations of your own earlier brain processes. > This could be the neural basis of introspection, and of the reciprocity of self awareness and other awareness. > There is obviously a chicken-or-egg question here as to which evolved first, but... > The main point is that the two co-evolved, mutually enriching each other to create the mature representation of self that characterizes modern humans."[5] > > > So very simple basically. > Not hard to code at all. > > AI is much of a hype sold today. > As is fusion power. > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> >> There are many more cases > >> >> > >> >> As to the simplicity of what the 'brain circuit' does, AI (as is sold today as the greatest thing), > >> >> has a LOT to learn as far as construct of the brain goes (how our systems mimicry it) > >> >> Today I was reading this in sciencedaily.com: > >> >> Affordances in the brain: The human superpower AI hasn’t mastered > >> >> Date: > >> >> June 23, 2025 > >> >> Source: > >> >> Universiteit van Amsterdam > >> >> Summary: > >> >> Scientists at the University of Amsterdam discovered that our brains automatically understand how we can move through > >> >> different environments > >> >> —whether it's swimming in a lake or walking a path—without conscious thought. > >> >> These "action possibilities," or affordances, light up specific brain regions independently of what’s visually > >> >> present. > >> >> In contrast, AI models like ChatGPT still struggle with these intuitive judgments, missing the physical context that > >> >> humans > >> >> naturally grasp. > >> >> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250622225921.htm > >> >> > >> >> It confirms some what I wrote before.. Simplicity. > >> >> > >> >> Human behavior is not so different from a simple feedback system > >> >> An anecdote: > >> >> in he sixties I got hold of an old American Scientific article about a toy car moving towards a light source.. > >> >> Being active in electronics I build a small electric driven car and some photo cell to try it out. > >> >> In my room, with electric lights on, and light reflecting from the white wallpaper, > >> >> the car would drive towards the light wallpaper, get in its own shadow, then reverse, and the thing got into a loop. > >> >> It reminded me how we, humans, are 'looking for the light' and get in our own way (our concepts perhaps). > >> >> Its all so simple. > >> >> Its all too beautiful :-) > >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e__TbhQGJU > >> >> Neural nets, drugs, light, religion, music, logic, > >> >> No I am not on drugs, not even alcohol, but I tried some in the seventies. > >> >> Me, a neural net. > >> >> And crows? > >> >> I still feed those. > >> > >> Just some other cells monitoring more basics ones and the memories build up in those. > >> > >> Maybe you think in english ? > >> Birdies think in pictures and sounds, use memories too, no difference. > >> > >> It is an interesting subject, how long before we have small bots that are smarter than us? > >> And then one big EMP kills all? > >> > >> Life and life forms is an interesting subject too: > >> Mojave lichen defies death rays—could life thrive on distant exoplanets? > >> Lichen from the Mojave Desert can survive, and replicate, under levels of extreme solar radiation found on Earth-like planets > >> in other solar systems. > >> Date: > >> June 24, 2025 > >> Source: > >> Desert Research Institute > >> Summary: > >> Lichen from the Mojave Desert has stunned scientists by surviving months of lethal UVC radiation, > >> suggesting life could exist on distant planets orbiting volatile stars. > >> The secret? A microscopic “sunscreen” layer that protects their vital cells—even though Earth’s atmosphere already > >> filters out such rays. > >> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/06/250624224813.htm > > > > > >That which you believe is "self-awarness"... > >according to Albert Einstein is simply a...optical delusion. > > > >In other words, 'self-awarness' is a delusion. > > > >A machine cannot be self-aware because humans have no self-awarness! > >It's only an illusion. > > > > > >A Jan by any other name... > > > >is a machine > >with a very > >strong dellusion of > >self...awareness. > > > > > >Your warm :-) is a mockery. > > > > > >I just looked > >in mirror > >and there is > >a red dot > >on my forehead... > >therefore I am. > > Many in India have dots on their foreheads.. > What does it mean if an Indian has a dot on their forehead? > The word “bindi” comes from the Sanskrit word “bindu,”meaning “dot” or “point.” > But it's not just any dot—it holds deep significance in Indian traditions. > In many cultures, it represents spiritual awakening and is connected to the “third eye,” the center of wisdom and intuition. > > Anyways I have no dot, but I hope yours helps you. > > I think if I was born in these days I would like to build my own Dino. > Expect the 'build your own dino kits' on sale in Walmart any day now :-) > > Build your own preCident??? > > My suggestion to you is: code some machine experiment. -- The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable, to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, and challenge the unchallengeable.