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Re: Decidability Decider H

Subject Re: Decidability Decider H
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy
References <u7t5o5$3f55i$1@dont-email.me> <XFpoM.7004$edH5.61@fx11.iad> <u7ta54$3jb57$1@dont-email.me> <3zqoM.19839$WpLf.10641@fx33.iad> <u7tctd$3jggg$1@dont-email.me>
From Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID <zQzoM.10083$edH5.6894@fx11.iad> (permalink)
Organization Forte - www.forteinc.com
Date 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 7/2/23 10:48 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/2/2023 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 7/2/23 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/2/2023 8:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/2/23 8:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> A single H can consistently correctly determine whether or not its 
>>>>> input
>>>>> is pathological relative to itself. When H(D,D) is invoked in
>>>>> decidability decider mode determines that D is pathological 
>>>>> relative to
>>>>> itself this enables a batch file to invoke H1(D,D) to get the actual
>>>>> behavior of the directly executed D(D). H1 is identical to H except 
>>>>> for
>>>>> the pathological relationship to H.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And does an input D that uses this FULL algorithm give your 
>>>> algorithm problems?
>>>>
>>>> Since H(D,D) will (apparently) determine that the input is 
>>>> pathological, and thus defer to H1(D,D), then when we actually run 
>>>> D, appearently it will get that same answer from H1 and do the 
>>>> opposite of it, and thus H1 will be wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, the "Pathological" program is built on a copy of the 
>>>> ACTUAL program that you ask to decide on it, including ALL of its 
>>>> "tricks", including things like this "batch processing".
>>>>
>>>> You seem to be assuming that there is some "Operationg System" 
>>>> outside the Decider - Input structure, but there isn't, at least not 
>>>> one that can affect the answer of the problem.
>>>
>>> I spent 12 hours a day for the last 10 days getting the copy the input
>>> working. When H(D,D) (in decidability decider mode) detects that its
>>> input is in the well defined set of pathological inputs it returns 0
>>> indicating that its input is undecidable. The batch file that invoked H
>>> then knows to invoke H1(D,D) to correctly report that D(D) halts.
>>>
>>> This solution does seem to work correctly on every conventional proof in
>>> every textbook.
>>>
>>
>> So, did you make your "conventional proof" template actually use a 
>> copy of your ACTUAL decider (which seems to be your "batch file" not 
>> the C funciton H), or are you just admitting that you wasted 120 hours 
>> looking at the wrong thing because you have made yourself 
>> intentionally ignorant of the subject so you don't understand what you 
>> are trying to do.
> 
> New_D copies its input and simulates its input with its input.
> It never sees New_H.
> 

Why not? Since New_H is the thing that is considered the "Correct Halt 
Decider", New_D needs to be built on it.

You keep on forgetting that the proof says we create a specific input 
for the given halt decider claimed to be correct, and the only halt 
decider that input is claimed to not be decidable with is that one.

SHowing that New_H can answer for the input designed on H means nothing, 
you need to show that it can handle the input designed for itself.

THAT is where the actual self-reference occurs, that there exists within 
the set of "any program" a program built on the decider in this manner.

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Thread

Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
  Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
    Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
      Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
            Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
              Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400

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