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| From | olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy |
| Subject | Re: Decidability Decider H |
| Date | 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <u7uocl$3nkts$3@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (2 earlier) <u7ta54$3jb57$1@dont-email.me> <QvqoM.19838$WpLf.7251@fx33.iad> <u7te6r$3jn5i$1@dont-email.me> <u7tgqh$3jsg7$1@dont-email.me> <sQzoM.10082$edH5.196@fx11.iad> |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 7/3/2023 8:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/2/23 11:54 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/2/2023 10:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/2/2023 9:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/2/23 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/2/2023 8:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/2/23 8:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> A single H can consistently correctly determine whether or not
>>>>>>> its input
>>>>>>> is pathological relative to itself. When H(D,D) is invoked in
>>>>>>> decidability decider mode determines that D is pathological
>>>>>>> relative to
>>>>>>> itself this enables a batch file to invoke H1(D,D) to get the actual
>>>>>>> behavior of the directly executed D(D). H1 is identical to H
>>>>>>> except for
>>>>>>> the pathological relationship to H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And does an input D that uses this FULL algorithm give your
>>>>>> algorithm problems?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since H(D,D) will (apparently) determine that the input is
>>>>>> pathological, and thus defer to H1(D,D), then when we actually run
>>>>>> D, appearently it will get that same answer from H1 and do the
>>>>>> opposite of it, and thus H1 will be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember, the "Pathological" program is built on a copy of the
>>>>>> ACTUAL program that you ask to decide on it, including ALL of its
>>>>>> "tricks", including things like this "batch processing".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You seem to be assuming that there is some "Operationg System"
>>>>>> outside the Decider - Input structure, but there isn't, at least
>>>>>> not one that can affect the answer of the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I spent 12 hours a day for the last 10 days getting the copy the input
>>>>> working. When H(D,D) (in decidability decider mode) detects that its
>>>>> input is in the well defined set of pathological inputs it returns 0
>>>>> indicating that its input is undecidable. The batch file that
>>>>> invoked H
>>>>> then knows to invoke H1(D,D) to correctly report that D(D) halts.
>>>>>
>>>>> This solution does seem to work correctly on every conventional
>>>>> proof in
>>>>> every textbook.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, what is the definition of that "Well Definde Set"? or is this
>>>> just another of your moronic oxymorons.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A set is a well-defined collection of objects called elements or
>>> members of the set. If x is a member of the set S, we write x ∈ S,
>>> and if x is a not member of the set S, we write x ∈ S Here,
>>> well-defined means that any given object must either be an element of
>>> the set, or not be an element of the set.
>>> https://www.math.uvic.ca/faculty/gmacgill/guide/sets.pdf
>>>
>>> My definition of well-defined set is that it includes and excludes a
>>> body of finite string pairs such that the second element of this pair
>>> that can be encoded in an infinite number of different ways that cannot
>>> even be foreseen in advance, all of which have the property of a
>>> pathological relationship to their decider.
>>>
>>> Since my system requires that the behavior of the input must be
>>> considered in making this assessment it is a semantic property.
>>>
>>>> Note, H can't have "Modes" that are externally controlled, as it has
>>>> no input to control that, it is just a decider that is given an
>>>> input to decide on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Technically you are correct on this when construed as computable
>>> functions.
>>>
>>>> If you have some "fuller" algorithm you use to decide that uses the
>>>> sub-function H to do a step, then D needs to be built on that fuller
>>>> algorithm, as THAT is what you are actually claiming to be your halt
>>>> decider.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is only a matter of returning 1 for non-halting and halting inputs
>>> and returning 0 for pathological inputs, thus the actual computation is
>>> identical except for a single bit of the return value.
>>>
>>> We could also simply run the input where H(D,D) != H1(D,D) means
>>> pathological input, thus accept the H1(D,D) value as correct.
>>>
>>
>> u32 H_DD = H(D,D);
>> u32 H1_DD = H1(D,D);
>> if (H_DD != H1_DD)
>> Output("H1(D,D) correct halt status is:", H1_DD);
>>
>> H1(D,D) correct halt status is:1
>
> So, what returns the actual results of the Halt decision?
>
> Remember, THAT is what D will call, not H or H1, since neither, by
> themselves, is a halt decider.
>
> That seems to mean that your ACTUAL Halt Decider HD(P, m) would be
> something like:
>
> HD(P, m) {
> u32 H_DD = H(P, m);
> u32 H1_DD = H1(P, m);
> return (H_DD == H1_DD) ? H_DD : H1_DD;
> }
>
> and
>
> D is defined something like:
> D(P) {
> if(HD(P,P)) {
> while(1) ;
> }
> }
>
> Which still gives the wrong answer.
>
>
> You seem to be forgetting what a Halt Decider needs to be.
At the Turing machine level any D can make it impossible for a
particular H to be unable to correctly report on the behavior of the
directly executed D(D). Because D is a fixed constant finite string it
cannot dynamically reconfigure itself to fool a different H.
--
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
Back to sci.logic | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
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Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
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Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
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Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
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Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
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