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| Subject | Re: Decidability Decider H |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy |
| References | (12 earlier) <u7v2hi$3opqe$3@dont-email.me> <BoEoM.155$_2s1.26@fx44.iad> <u7v5l8$3p4d9$3@dont-email.me> <FLFoM.17231$W7d4.13033@fx18.iad> <u7vc0q$3ptr9$1@dont-email.me> |
| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
| Message-ID | <IMGoM.4989$zQS.1164@fx41.iad> (permalink) |
| Organization | Forte - www.forteinc.com |
| Date | 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400 |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
On 7/3/23 4:45 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/3/2023 2:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 7/3/23 2:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/3/2023 1:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/23 2:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/3/2023 11:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/3/23 12:05 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:58 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 11:44 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 10:42 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 8:13 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 11:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Only when I show you are wrong. Actually try to answer my
>>>>>>>>>>>> objections
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What about a three valued decider?
>>>>>>>>>>> 0=undecidable
>>>>>>>>>>> 1=halting
>>>>>>>>>>> 2=not halting
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't meet the definition of a Halt Decider.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because these are semantic properties based on the behavior of
>>>>>>>>> the input it does refute Rice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope. Rice's theorem doesn't allow for an 'undecidable' output
>>>>>>>> state either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Either the input is or is not something that is in the set
>>>>>>>> defined by the function/language defined.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Undecidable is just admitting that Rice is true.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Undecidable <is> a semantic property.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Source of that Claim?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you aren't saying the Undecidable <IS> a semantic property,
>>>>>> but is an answer for if an input <HAS> some specific semantic
>>>>>> property.
>>>>>
>>>>> In computability theory, Rice's theorem states that all non-trivial
>>>>> semantic properties of programs are undecidable. A semantic
>>>>> property is
>>>>> one about the program's behavior
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
>>>>>
>>>>> Undecidable <is> a semantic property of the finite string pair: {H,D}.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I mentioned, many simple descriptions get it wrong. Note, later
>>>> in the same page it says:
>>>>
>>>> It is important to note that Rice's theorem does not concern the
>>>> properties of machines or programs; it concerns properties of
>>>> functions and languages.
>>>>
>>>
>>> H correctly accepts every language specified by the pair: {H, *}
>>> (where the first element is the machine description of H and the
>>> second element is any other machine description) or rejects this
>>> pair as undecidable.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So, you are admitting you don't understand what you are saying.
>>
>> D isn't "undecidable" but always has definite behavior based on the
>> behavior of the definite machine H that it was based on (and thus you
>> are being INTENTIONALLY dupicious by now calling H to be a some sort
>> of other decider).
>>
>> Since you claim that Halt-Decider-H "Correctly" returned false for
>> H(D,D) we know that D(D) Halts, so D the problem of D has an answer so
>> hard to call "undecidable"
>>
>> Again, what is the definition of your "Language", and why do you call
>> {H,D} as UNDECIDABLE, since H will be a FIXED DEFINED decider that is
>> just WRONG about its input, that isn't "undecidable".
>
>
> Using Rogers' characterization of acceptable programming systems, Rice's
> theorem may essentially be generalized from Turing machines to most
> computer programming languages: there exists no automatic method that
> decides with generality non-trivial questions on the behavior of
> computer programs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
>
> H correctly divides inputs into
> (a) Halting
> (b) Not halting
> (c) Cannot be decided by H
>
And where do you see anything that allows H to be "correct" in giving
answer (c)?
The specific input either represents a machine that does (a) or does
(b), so in no case is the results of "it can not be decided" be correct.
You are just showing that you fundamentally don't understand what you
are talking about.
The question follows the rule of the excluded middle, so there is no
valid answer (c).
Back to sci.logic | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
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