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Re: Decidability Decider H

From olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy
Subject Re: Decidability Decider H
Date 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <u824bd$7am2$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (23 earlier) <vfMoM.805$8Ma1.346@fx37.iad> <u805a0$3vudj$2@dont-email.me> <nVMoM.17038$N3_4.6557@fx10.iad> <u808rm$ejg$1@dont-email.me> <u816nh$3v4u$2@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 7/4/2023 8:27 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/4/23 12:57 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/3/2023 11:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/3/23 11:56 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/3/23 10:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 4:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 5:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 4:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 4:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 2:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 2:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 1:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 1:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 11:26 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 12:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 11:01 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 11:56 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 10:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 10:45 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 9:24 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/23 9:47 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/3/2023 8:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 10:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/2023 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/2023 8:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/2/23 8:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A single H can consistently correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine whether or not its input
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is pathological relative to itself. When 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(D,D) is invoked in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decidability decider mode determines that D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is pathological relative to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself this enables a batch file to invoke 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H1(D,D) to get the actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of the directly executed D(D). H1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is identical to H except for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pathological relationship to H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And does an input D that uses this FULL 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithm give your algorithm problems?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since H(D,D) will (apparently) determine that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the input is pathological, and thus defer to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H1(D,D), then when we actually run D, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearently it will get that same answer from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H1 and do the opposite of it, and thus H1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember, the "Pathological" program is built 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a copy of the ACTUAL program that you ask 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to decide on it, including ALL of its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "tricks", including things like this "batch 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processing".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to be assuming that there is some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Operationg System" outside the Decider - 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Input structure, but there isn't, at least 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not one that can affect the answer of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I spent 12 hours a day for the last 10 days 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting the copy the input
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working. When H(D,D) (in decidability decider 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mode) detects that its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input is in the well defined set of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathological inputs it returns 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicating that its input is undecidable. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> batch file that invoked H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then knows to invoke H1(D,D) to correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> report that D(D) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This solution does seem to work correctly on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every conventional proof in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every textbook.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, did you make your "conventional proof" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template actually use a copy of your ACTUAL 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider (which seems to be your "batch file" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not the C funciton H), or are you just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> admitting that you wasted 120 hours looking at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the wrong thing because you have made yourself 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally ignorant of the subject so you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't understand what you are trying to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New_D copies its input and simulates its input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with its input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It never sees New_H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? Since New_H is the thing that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> considered the "Correct Halt Decider", New_D 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs to be built on it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New_H is embedded within New_D (as its middle 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> states) just the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way it is supposed to be. The question is: Does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New_H(New_H) halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only difference at the source code level is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) New_H copies its input, thus takes one param.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) New_H has an infinite loop at its accept state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, how is New_H a halt decider then?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only difference at the source code level is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) New_D copies its input, thus takes one param.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) New_D has an infinite loop at its accept state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other than that (at the source-code level) New_D is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly New_H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But New_D needs to call New_H, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not in the Peter Linz proof:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.liarparadox.org/Linz_Proof.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the Linz proof a copy of H is directly embedded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within Ĥ at this state: Ĥq0 Wm Wm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The original H remains unchanged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The halting problem is about undecidable inputs, it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inserting bugs into a halt decider to make it cease to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, and in Linz, H is the decider that is claimed to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give the right answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That isn't 'H' in your system, but the script that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decides whether to use H or H1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your error is in calling the wrong thing 'H'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are just showing you are lying by using the wrong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name for things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are using double-talk in a lame attempt to show that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz H cannot correctly determine the halt status of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz Ĥ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you agree with the Theorem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No 'Linz H' can exist that correctly decides the halt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> status of Linz Ĥ applied to the description of Linz Ĥ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is EXACTLY the consequence of the Halting Theorem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please show an ACTUAL 'Linz H' that correctly gets the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results of the 'Linz Ĥ' built on it. You keep on changing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H and trying to use the old Ĥ which just fails to meet 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the requirement of the proof, likely because you just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't understand the theory involved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It took me two years to figure out a clean way to copy the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat and not have the system crash. Relative to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H is H1. Now Linz_H_Hat only contradicts itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, you are admitting that you actually can't do what is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> required?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Copying the input should be trivial,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The relative addressing of the x86 language causes all function
>>>>>>>>>>>> calls to call the wrong address.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Only because you aren't interpreting the input properly, but 
>>>>>>>>>>> in a non-Turing Complete manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As I said, the input description should be a chunck of code 
>>>>>>>>>>> in a virtual address space with a header that tells where 
>>>>>>>>>>> that code is supposed to be considered to be located at.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the input should be a representation that packages a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> full program in its own virtual environment, so a simple 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit by bit copy to empty ram will work. Your problem is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you don't put the input into its own virtual address 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> space, so you have pathological interactions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat must be built on the exact code base that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deciding on it, in this case H, since you just said it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't, your proof is invalid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_Hat <is> Linz_H that takes one param  and copies it 
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>> two params and has an infinite loop at its accept state.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, Two things that are different are exactly the same?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It exactly matches the Linz spec.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You don't seem to understand what you are doing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat (not Linz_Hat) is a Turing Machine with a defined 
>>>>>>>>>>> behavior. That behavior is a function of its input, but 
>>>>>>>>>>> hasn't been assigned any "meaning".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H is a Turing Machine (if it actually can exist) that 
>>>>>>>>>>> has a defined meaning/requirement for its final states. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H, to meet its requirements, MUST go to Qy if the input 
>>>>>>>>>>> represents a Halting Computation, and MUST go to Qn if the 
>>>>>>>>>>> input represents a non-halting computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Since Linz_H has actual requirements, a claimed 
>>>>>>>>>>> implementation of it can be checked to see if it actually 
>>>>>>>>>>> meets the requirements, and perhaps we can determine if it is 
>>>>>>>>>>> possible to meet them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Note, Linz_H_Hat CAN'T "Contradict" itself, as doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> generate any truth values, only behavior. You are just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> showing that you don't understand the basics of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements, and seem to think that "close" is good enough 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for proofs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat(Linz_H_Hat) returns 0.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> > Actually no. Linz_H_Hat(Linz_H_Hat) halts at state Qn, 
>>>>>>>>>>> which has NO
>>>>>>>>>>> defined meaning for Linz_H_Hat as it isn't defined to be a 
>>>>>>>>>>> decider.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H and Linz_H_Hat are C functions.
>>>>>>>>>> Linz:H and Linz:Ĥ are Turing machines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, inventing new terminology without introduction, thus 
>>>>>>>>> showing you are being intentionally deceptive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H and Linz:H are both directly embedded within a copy of
>>>>>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat and Linz:Ĥ thus a return value of 0 or a transition
>>>>>>>>>> to Ĥ.qn still means not halting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, because Linz_H_Hat / Linz:Ĥ are not "Halt Deciders" so 
>>>>>>>>> there return value has no meaning.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ĥ has no meaning, so it can't be "incorrect" or contradicted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This allows Linz_H and Linz:H correctly report on the actual
>>>>>>>>>> behavior of their input.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, since BOTH have an input that when run will HALT, and both 
>>>>>>>>> report that it will not, both are just wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Linz_H(Linz_H_Hat, Linz_H_Hat) is claimed to "correctly" return 0, 
>>>>>>>> *I never said that you are confused*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You always claim that your H by its various names is "Correct" to 
>>>>>>> return 0 as the input is non-halting because its "correct 
>>>>>>> simulation" will never reach a final state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think your brain is turning into mush, or is your pathology 
>>>>>>> overloading and trying to reverse the argument.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat(Linz_H_Hat) returns 0 permitting
>>>>>>>> Linz_H(Linz_H_Hat, Linz_H_Hat) to correctly return 1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if Linz_H(Linz_H_Hat, Linz_H_Hat) returns 1, which means 
>>>>>>> Halting, 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat has its own embedded_H that returns 0.
>>>>>> Linz_H_Hat has no access to Linz_H, only to its own embedded copy.
>>>>>
>>>>> But embedded_H is an identical copy to Linz_H, so if embedded_H 
>>>>> returns 0, so does Lin
>>>>>
>>>>>> Linz_H simply simulates Linz_H_Hat until it terminates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then so must embedded_H, since it is an identical copy, and as you 
>>>>> have shown before, if H is defined that way, the H_Hat will never 
>>>>> halt, and thus H, since for this case you said it doesn't abort, 
>>>>> will also never halt and fail to be a decider.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have gone through this many hundreds of times.
>>>> It is the exact same H(D,D) versus H1(D,D) thing.
>>>>
>>>> Linz_H_Hat now has a pathological relationship to itself
>>>> this frees Linz_H from such a pathological relationship.
>>>> So Linz_H becomes H1, and Linz_H_Hat becomes H.
>>>
>>> Nope, just shows you are not working in a Turing Equivalent system, 
>>> and thus NOTHING you say matters.
>>>
>>
>> You can make such claims with bluster finding a source that actually
>> supports them is a whole different matter.
> 
> No, you are just showing that you believe Russell's Teapot actually 
> exists. YOU are the one making claims, so YOU are the one that needs to 
> make a actual proof of correctness, and show the error in the counter 
> claims.
> 

If you believe that I am incorrect you need much more than your own
presumption as a basis for an actual rebuttal. You might not have
much more than this mere presumption.

> It is a PROVEN fact that two computation machines with the exact same 
> algorithm and the exact same input will always produce the same result.
> 
> You are claiming differently, WITHOUT PROOF, so you are shown to be a LIAR.
> 

H1(D,D) and H(D,D) have different execution traces because D calls H and
D does not call H1. A not very bright software engineer could understand
this.

> Either H and H1 are claimed to be the same machine, or they are not. If 
> they are the same machine, they need to give the same answer, or they 
> are not, and thus H1 getting the right answer to the H^ built on H 
> doesn't matter.
> 
> 
>> It is the case that when embedded_H is a simulating termination analyzer
>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ that the simulated input cannot possibly terminate
>> normally and must have its simulation aborted.
> 
> So?
> 
>>
>> It is not the case the Linz:H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ that its input must 
>> have its simulation terminated.
> 
> Thus Linz:H and embedded_H aren't the same machine, as REQUIRED, thus 
> showing that you hav just been LYING for decades.

It is a simple execution trace that even a bright high school student
can understand now that I have shown it at the C source code level.

>>
>>>>
>>>>> Now, since you are claiming that the embedded_H and Linz_H are 
>>>>> IDENTICAL machines, but the also produce DIFFERENT results when 
>>>>> given identical inputs, you have just proven that you are a LIAR. 
>>>>
>>>> *So you are back to rejecting verified facts out-of-hand*
>>>> It is a verified fact that H(D,D) returns 0 and H1(D,D) returns
>>>> 1 and the only difference is that H1 does not have a pathological
>>>> relationship to H and it is otherwise identical to H.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Since youy refuse to provide the verification fact about where the 
>>> paths of H(D,D) and D(D) differ, you don't HAVE a "verified fact".
>>>
>>
>> The source code and execution trace have been available for a year.
>> I have explained this many times the problem seems to be that you simply
>> don't believe the facts. You say that a simulation is incorrect yet
>> cannot point to the instruction that was simulated incorrectly only
>> because the simulation is actually correct.
> 
> No, YOU LIE. The "Call H" instruction has been simulated incorrectly (or 
> not simulated at all an false presumptions about what it does used).
> 
>>
>>> You are just proving that you are just a LIAR and an IDIOT.
>>>
>>> What IS verified is that D(D) Halts, so H(D,D) returning 0 is BY 
>>> DEFINITION WRONG and you claim tha tit is right is a verified LIE.
>>>
>>
>> It depends on how you frame the problem.
>> If you frame the problem in that a halt decider must divide up finite
>> strings pairs into those that halt when directly executed and those that
>> do not, then no single program can do this. A pair of programs might do
>> this.
> 
> So, you agree with the Halting Theorem, as that it is the precise 
> problem being asked about.
> 
>>
>> If you frame the problem in that a halt decider must divide up finite
>> stings into those that must have their simulation aborted to prevent
>> their infinite execution, then from H's point of view D does not halt.
> 
> 
> So, you are admitting to using a Strawman, and nothing you say applies 
> to the ACTUAL Halting Problem.
> 
> You have maybe shown that POOP might be decidable, it at least can't use 
> the simple pathological example to show it, but POOP isn't about Halting 
> but partial simulation, so who cares about it.
> 
> This shows your mental instability as we don't care about what H sees, 
> which is just something of its imagination, we care about the reality of 
> what D actually does. Just like we care about what is ACTUALLY true, 
> verses what you think must be true without actually trying to prove it 
> logically.

It turns out that Linz_H(Linz_H_Hat, Linz_H_Hat) == 1
because Linz_H_Hat(Linz_H_Hat) == 0

This translates into Linz:H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly
transitions to Linz:H.qy because Linz:Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
transitions to Linz:Ĥ.qn

So I have overcome the issue of H(D,D) reporting non-halting and
the directly executed D(D) then halting in two different ways:

(1) Linz_H(Linz_H_Hat, Linz_H_Hat) reports halting and
Linz_H_Hat(Linz_H_Hat) halts.

(2) With the three value return of H(D,D) H only reports halting
when its directly executed input actually halts and seems to
defeat Rice by separately reporting all conventional halting
problem proof pathological inputs.


-- 
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

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Thread

Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
  Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
    Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
      Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
            Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
              Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400

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