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Re: Decidability Decider H

From olcott <polcott2@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.ai.philosophy
Subject Re: Decidability Decider H
Date 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <u7ujhs$3na9j$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <XFpoM.7004$edH5.61@fx11.iad> <u7ta54$3jb57$1@dont-email.me> <3zqoM.19839$WpLf.10641@fx33.iad> <u7tctd$3jggg$1@dont-email.me> <zQzoM.10083$edH5.6894@fx11.iad>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 7/3/2023 8:14 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/2/23 10:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/2/2023 9:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/2/23 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/2/2023 8:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/2/23 8:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> A single H can consistently correctly determine whether or not its 
>>>>>> input
>>>>>> is pathological relative to itself. When H(D,D) is invoked in
>>>>>> decidability decider mode determines that D is pathological 
>>>>>> relative to
>>>>>> itself this enables a batch file to invoke H1(D,D) to get the actual
>>>>>> behavior of the directly executed D(D). H1 is identical to H 
>>>>>> except for
>>>>>> the pathological relationship to H.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And does an input D that uses this FULL algorithm give your 
>>>>> algorithm problems?
>>>>>
>>>>> Since H(D,D) will (apparently) determine that the input is 
>>>>> pathological, and thus defer to H1(D,D), then when we actually run 
>>>>> D, appearently it will get that same answer from H1 and do the 
>>>>> opposite of it, and thus H1 will be wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember, the "Pathological" program is built on a copy of the 
>>>>> ACTUAL program that you ask to decide on it, including ALL of its 
>>>>> "tricks", including things like this "batch processing".
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to be assuming that there is some "Operationg System" 
>>>>> outside the Decider - Input structure, but there isn't, at least 
>>>>> not one that can affect the answer of the problem.
>>>>
>>>> I spent 12 hours a day for the last 10 days getting the copy the input
>>>> working. When H(D,D) (in decidability decider mode) detects that its
>>>> input is in the well defined set of pathological inputs it returns 0
>>>> indicating that its input is undecidable. The batch file that invoked H
>>>> then knows to invoke H1(D,D) to correctly report that D(D) halts.
>>>>
>>>> This solution does seem to work correctly on every conventional 
>>>> proof in
>>>> every textbook.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, did you make your "conventional proof" template actually use a 
>>> copy of your ACTUAL decider (which seems to be your "batch file" not 
>>> the C funciton H), or are you just admitting that you wasted 120 
>>> hours looking at the wrong thing because you have made yourself 
>>> intentionally ignorant of the subject so you don't understand what 
>>> you are trying to do.
>>
>> New_D copies its input and simulates its input with its input.
>> It never sees New_H.
>>
> 
> Why not? Since New_H is the thing that is considered the "Correct Halt 
> Decider", New_D needs to be built on it.
> 

New_H is embedded within New_D (as its middle states) just the
way it is supposed to be. The question is: Does New_H(New_H) halt?

The only difference at the source code level is:
(a) New_H copies its input, thus takes one param.
(b) New_H has an infinite loop at its accept state.

> You keep on forgetting that the proof says we create a specific input 
> for the given halt decider claimed to be correct, and the only halt 
> decider that input is claimed to not be decidable with is that one.
> 
> SHowing that New_H can answer for the input designed on H means nothing, 
> you need to show that it can handle the input designed for itself.
> 
> THAT is where the actual self-reference occurs, that there exists within 
> the set of "any program" a program built on the decider in this manner.

-- 
Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

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Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 19:45 -0500
  Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 03:11 +0200
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:27 -0400
  Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 21:40 -0400
    Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:01 -0500
      Re: Decidability Decider H Python <python@invalid.org> - 2023-07-03 04:05 +0200
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:37 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:10 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 22:54 -0500
            Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
              Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:10 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:41 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:09 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:00 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:49 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:13 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:42 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:44 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:05 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:03 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:08 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:30 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:34 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:40 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 20:51 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:47 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:35 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:32 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H [key Rice issue] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:07 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:19 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:31 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:36 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:28 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:58 -0400
      Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-02 22:41 -0400
        Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 21:48 -0500
          Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 09:14 -0400
            Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 08:47 -0500
              Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 10:24 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 09:45 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 11:35 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 10:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:01 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 11:11 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 12:26 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 12:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 14:25 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 13:48 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 15:22 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:17 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 16:34 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 17:55 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 21:20 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-03 23:22 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 22:56 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 00:06 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 23:57 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2023-07-04 09:27 -0400
                Re: Decidability Decider H olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 16:52 -0500
                Re: Decidability Decider H Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2023-07-04 19:00 -0400

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