Groups > sci.electronics.design > #489638

Re: OT: Hee! Hee!

From	Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: OT: Hee! Hee!
Date	2017-12-29 14:05 -0800
Message-ID	<fansg5F2pqpU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <cacc8af9-e84d-4d34-bf66-28c05cb6546b@googlegroups.com> <fand6fFtlieU1@mid.individual.net> <e188ed64-80be-42aa-83b0-9ebabcecaf7b@googlegroups.com> <fanik8FevoU1@mid.individual.net> <ae5bcaf3-2f75-48d8-95f2-44fd8ddaba5d@googlegroups.com>

Show all headers | View raw

On 2017-12-29 11:58, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 2:16:30 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-12-29 10:53, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 12:43:51 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-12-29 09:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 9:03:06 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> On 2017-12-28 17:17, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 12:34:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>>>>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/tax-bill-spawns-new-holiday-ritual-waiting-in-line-to-pay-taxes/2017/12/27/1e7ea59a-eb12-11e7-b698-91d4e35920a3_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_prepay921pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.fbd9b2130809>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You residents of the Tax & Spend States deserve it >:-}
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You bet!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://townhall.com/columnists/betsymccaughey/2017/12/27/beware-obamacare-penalty-could-come-back-n2427231>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have read that before and it does not compute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quote "The penalty payers largely earned less than $50,000 a year. They
>>>>>> paid the penalty because they found Obamacare unaffordable".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The story is, as usual, short on details and hard data but assuming this
>>>>>> is for a married couple filing jointly: Even if they had not kids a
>>>>>> bronze plan would cost them almost nothing, maybe a couple of bucks a
>>>>>> month. Now how is that more than $470/year? Fake news?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> It's true, 80% of those paying the penalty earn less than $50k.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are they married or not? If they are they can bet health care for a
>>>> pittance, less than $470/year.
>>>
>>> No, that's just not true.  I just asked a buddy who is about in this
>>> category.  He was quoted $803 a month, with what amounted to a $20k
>>> deductible.
>>>
>>
>> So why does this work in California? Got to the Covered CA web site
>> which is our kind of Obamacare, key in the ages, then $50k combined MAGI
>> and look at the results.
>>
>> https://www.coveredca.com/
>
> In CA, where premiums have not risen as far as elsewhere, it quotes me
> $559.80/month for this friend, lowest cost Bronze, with a $6k deductible.
>

Again, is he married? If not then he is above the treshold and can 
afford the insurance.


> So, $7k a year for useless insurance.
>

Whether it is useless or not is a question of risk. It will cover a 
major health issue which is why my wife and I have a high-deductible 
policy. If the guy decides to gamble on it, a drunk driver smashes into 
him, flees the scene and the cops can't find him your friend is going to 
be screwed for life.


> This person ballparks about $50k gross (a guess), but is paying off a
> lot of debt too.  Not much slack in that budget, not without losing the
> house.
>

So, financially over-extended. That, of course, never enters into the 
equation of any legislation and shouldn't.

>>
>> The deductibles on bronze plans are high but not $20k. Not even close.
>
> Initially the Obama Administration was allowing separate deductibles for
> regular care and hospitalization(?, IIRC), effectively doubling your
> deductible compared to the advertised price. (They did that so they could
> claim that Obamacare was keeping premiums down.)
>
> There were some other gotchas, too, accounting for the rest of the
> 'effective' deductible.  I find it boring following tyranny though, so
> haven't kept track of their latest shenanigans.
>

Well, it ain't much of an insurance but all the other (non-Obamacare) 
plans are similar unless you are willing to pay through the nose or are 
a government worker who gets almost everything for free.


>>> If you're right on the poverty line then bitrex picks up most of the tab.
>>> Otherwise, not, and you're in for premiums that O/C has doubled and more.
>>>
>>
>> https://www.healthinsurance.org/obamacare/beware-obamacares-subsidy-cliff/
>>
>> The graph in here shows it even more dramatically:
>>
>> https://thefinancebuff.com/stay-under-obamacare-premium-subsidy-cliff.html
>>
>>
>>>>> "Nearly 80 percent of those who paid the fee in 2015 earned less than $50,000."
>>>>> e.g. https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/11/25/obamacare-individual-mandate-tax-working-poor/LLog96t6im6s71auC4smKK/story.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Link wants me to connect with Facebook or sign up. No way. Another
>>>> publication for the trash heap.
>>>
>>> The information came from the commissioner of the IRS, the agency that
>>> collects the penalty.
>>>
>>
>> Then there would have to be a lot of stupid people around. $50k and
>> married (filing jointly) gets you very cheap insurance. The problem
>> starts if you earn above 400% of FPL but that is at around $65k. If
>> healthy then the penalty is a lot cheaper.
>
> Some find spending time and energy avoiding those events preferable
> to arranging to overpay someone to half-rescue them after the fact.


What events? Getting sick? People have almost no control over much of 
that. A friend's neighbor just slipped off the tailgate of his pickup 
truck and broke his back. Stuff happens.


> And others realize that if they get sick, all they have to do is hang
> in until the next Obamacare jubilee and jump on the freebie wagon.
>

With a heart attack or a massive brain bleed? How do you stretch that 
out over seven months?


>> However, you'd be one heart
>> attack, stroke or hit-and-run smash away from personal bankruptcy.
>
> I'd be a lot more worried about the former--the latter's secondary!
>

Until you get hit.


> Medical care is too expensive.  That's because everyone uses insurance,
> and therefore, no one competes on price, or has to.  No one cares what
> anything costs. (And Obamacare just carved that into Mt. Rushmore as
> our new motto.)
>

Fully agree. Neither Obama nor anyone did anything about that.


>> I was never without health insurance all my life and don't plan to be
>> without the rest of it.
>>
>>
>>>>> The subsidies taper off pretty rapidly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is one of the biggest flaw in this stupid Obamacare law. You ake
>>>> one buck more than the limits and you will be hugely penalized.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>                              ... A healthy individual (lots of young
>>>>> people, for example) wouldn't have much trouble choosing between $5k in
>>>>> almost useless Obamajunk "insurance" with a giant deductible, and the
>>>>> much-cheaper freedom tax.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, just as I knew people who preferred to buy a fully decked-out
>>>> Camaro from the "savings" of not having health insurance, pre-Obama.
>>>> Sorry, but that's their problem. When they get sick, not my problem.
>>>
>>> Obamacare made free-riding the default setting. Now it's a 'right,' the
>>> government enforces it for you (makes other people pay your insurance),
>>> and you don't even have to leave your house--you can do it from your couch!
>>>
>>> Now that's progress!  (It's very convenient.)
>>>
>>
>> Of course people take advantage.
>
> As they should, in a socialist regime.  That's what Obama asked them to
> do. He even spent billions of their money begging them to.
>
> If everyone else is going to be getting your money, legally, it makes sense
> to start trying to take as much of theirs as you possibly can, first.
>

Sure, especially since they made people pay beaucoup bucks into the 
system for years. Eventually people want their due.

[...]

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Back to sci.electronics.design | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

OT: Hee! Hee! Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-12-28 12:34 -0700
  Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-28 17:45 -0500
    Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-28 20:17 -0500
      Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-28 21:41 -0500
        Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-28 21:45 -0500
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-28 22:02 -0500
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-28 22:11 -0500
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-28 22:24 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-28 22:39 -0500
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-29 11:47 -0600
        Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-28 21:54 -0500
      Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-28 19:53 -0800
        Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-28 23:39 -0500
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-28 23:43 -0500
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 00:00 -0500
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-28 21:52 -0800
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 01:20 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-29 11:57 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 13:11 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-29 14:22 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-29 12:26 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 16:10 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 16:15 -0500
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 13:10 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 13:33 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 13:42 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 13:48 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 14:16 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-12-29 19:43 +0000
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 14:51 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-12-29 21:53 +0000
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 17:29 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 17:39 -0500
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-12-29 19:39 +0000
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 14:59 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-12-29 21:54 +0000
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 18:32 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 17:41 -0500
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-28 21:51 -0800
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-28 22:18 -0800
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 02:18 -0500
        Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 07:46 -0800
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 11:05 -0500
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 13:16 -0500
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-29 13:01 -0800
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 15:13 -0800
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-12-29 15:25 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 15:32 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-12-29 16:44 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 18:45 -0500
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 18:44 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 15:56 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 20:08 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 22:28 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 07:34 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 11:29 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 09:54 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 14:56 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 13:53 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 17:28 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 15:09 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-30 17:27 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-30 17:04 -0800
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-30 18:07 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-30 19:14 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-31 07:38 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-31 10:40 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-31 10:55 -0800
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-29 18:37 -0800
  Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-28 20:17 -0500
    Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-28 18:03 -0800
      Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-28 21:28 -0500
        Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 07:30 -0800
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 13:18 -0500
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 10:46 -0800
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 13:50 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 11:02 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-29 17:45 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 15:06 -0800
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-29 14:53 -0600
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 16:02 -0500
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-29 15:20 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 18:58 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-30 08:41 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 11:27 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 12:13 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 12:26 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 12:15 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 12:28 -0500
      Re: OT: Hee! Hee! dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-12-29 09:36 -0800
        Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 09:43 -0800
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-12-29 10:53 -0800
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 11:16 -0800
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-12-29 11:58 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 14:05 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 07:04 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-31 07:44 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 12:49 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-29 19:05 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 07:12 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 07:13 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Michael A Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-12-31 23:43 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-12-31 10:45 -0800
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-29 15:08 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 14:07 -0800
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-12-29 20:07 +0000
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 15:52 -0500
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-29 19:10 -0800
          Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 15:09 -0500
            Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 14:09 -0800
              Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 18:35 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-29 16:03 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-29 19:51 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 07:43 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 11:20 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 11:25 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-30 09:37 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 11:32 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-30 11:42 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-30 12:29 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-31 08:24 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-31 09:32 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-30 17:13 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-30 16:52 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-31 11:00 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 07:19 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-31 08:35 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-12-31 08:46 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-12-31 08:32 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-31 06:05 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 09:20 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-31 19:32 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2018-01-01 06:44 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-01-01 06:47 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2018-01-01 09:56 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-01-01 17:31 -0800
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-31 09:39 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-12-31 09:00 -0600
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! krw@notreal.com - 2017-12-31 16:39 -0500
                Re: OT: Hee! Hee! bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-12-31 19:11 -0800

csiph-web