Re: Floppies

Path	csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From	Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc
Subject	Re: Floppies
Date	Sun, 21 Sep 2025 11:11:10 -0000 (UTC)
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Lines	153
Message-ID	<slrn10cvnae.3nu.jj@iridium.wf32df> (permalink)
References	<10884l7$173em$1@dont-email.me> <l0kknlxj6r.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <1089ge2$1fvl9$8@dont-email.me> <mgr05gFenvU2@mid.individual.net> <10a68ql$16tjt$1@dont-email.me> <68c6bbc5$0$402$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <10a6rp4$1d082$5@dont-email.me> <2d9jplxvcn.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <10a6t8d$1d082$8@dont-email.me> <4cnjplxbgm.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <mipa1vFg9pkU2@mid.individual.net> <10a8lmu$1q6g1$7@dont-email.me> <1s2mplx32v.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <68cdb6b5$0$12931$426a34cc@news.free.fr> <10alus7$57hc$1@news1.tnib.de> <68cebda5$0$3358$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Injection-Date	Sun, 21 Sep 2025 11:11:11 +0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info	dont-email.me; posting-host="f933ea10915bf686434b02434c88b765"; logging-data="1769757"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+40NR/Qxntu2AHmarGQGtmSYx9Z0EVP10="
User-Agent	slrn/1.0.3 (Linux)
Cancel-Lock	sha1:FPu8SxEhGE8rxMhQe2h3S1i3lbU=
Xref	csiph.com comp.os.linux.misc:74709

Show key headers only | View raw

Just so you know - I loved the post, and got to the end! As you say 
language (and its evolution) is fascinating.


On 2025-09-20, St??phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
> Le 20-09-2025, Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> a ??crit??:
>> St??phane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>>>In France we say CD. For the strictness of the French it's not that
>>>easy. First French people start to use the English word related to a
>>>new concept. Second, the 40 morons auto declared experts in French
>>>chose a word which looks like more French to replace the English word.
>>>Then some people try to use the new word, other don't. Depending on the
>>>word, it's more or less well spread.
>>
>> Like ordinateur or logiciel?
>
> Short answer: no.
>
> But I love languages and history and as we are speaking about computers
> at the same time, I feel a longer answer isn't out of topic here. And as
> I like your mistake, I'm enjoying to answer it in advance. Thanks for
> your question.
>
> So, for the obvious part, ordinateur and logiciel are used by every one
> in France. Nobody is using computer and software. Since as long as I can
> remember, so probably before I was born, everyone in France spoke about
> ordinateur and logiciel. For the logiciel part, I have no clue. So
> thanks again: I'll have to dig and that promise to be very interesting
> but it's for later. For now, I'll answer the ordinateur part, then I'll
> give you real examples of what I mean.
>
> So, a really different point between the French world and the English
> world is: in France we are speaking about ordinateurs and informatique
> when in US/UK they are speaking about computers and computer science.
> It's not about using different word to speak about the same thing. It's
> about different concepts. And that's when the fun begins.
>
> Let say for a start, that I'm speaking about my visions of things. I
> mean the reason behind them here are real. But not everyone in France
> and/or in US/UK are aware of them or agree with them. The history is
> right, the linguistic is right but the implications in every one life is
> not required to be right.
>
> So, that being said, let's start with the US/UK world.
>
> A computer is something designed to compute. Which means the actual
> computer follow either the Chinese abacus if you want to go back in time
> as far as you want. Or you can consider Blaise Pascal if you want to
> start with the theory. But your (or my) preferred way to start looking
> for the beginning of computing is irrelevant here. The main point is: in
> the English world, the history start with the computing thing.
> Computations started to be more and more complex and the actual computer
> came to life. And the term computer science is obvious on that part.
>
> Now, for the French words, there are two different things but only one
> same broad concept which is conceptually different from the English
> world. And for my part, I strongly consider that the French concept is
> the right one. Not because I'm French, mind you: it's irrelevant here, I
> hope it will be obvious by the end.
>
> So, ordinateur is a word related with ordonner in French, which means
> sorting in English. And if it can looks weird seen like that, it will
> become more obvious soon. Yes, a little bit of suspense here, sorry if
> you don't like it, I can't avoid it and my post is already to long. So,
> the other part is informatique.
>
> It's not related with computation in a broad way but with information
> in a broad way. And then, you can understand why taking care of
> information in a broad way is relating with sorting. Or at least I hope
> so. It's not the same thing but it's related. Of course, when you want
> to sort a lot of information you need some power to compute. But it's a
> need not a purpose.
>
> And, still for me, but it's not a new thing, other people agree with
> that, I discovered nothing, the ancestor of computer is not related with
> abacus or Blaise Pascal. So, by now, do you already guessed what is the
> ancestor of modern computer to me (maybe for you too and for a lot of
> others) is?
>
> End of suspense: it's the Jacquard machine designed to loom in an
> automatic way. You may claim that as a French I'm looking only at the
> French point of view. You may claim that Charles Babbage came before.
> But it's not my point. My point is not to say that the technical part
> (Jackquard machine/abacus) is more or less important than the theory
> part (Charles Babbage/Blaise Pascal). My point is to say that the
> concept behind the computer is distinct to the concept behind the
> ordinateur.
>
> One starting in a need to compute and, in a second time, the need to
> program more and more difficult computations. The other starting with
> the need to reproduce the same thing again and again with the need to
> compute arising with the difficulty to reproduce. In the end, we arrive
> at the same thing, but the concepts behind them are very different. And
> that's, for me, the reason before those different words. Unlike other
> words which came in the French world from the English world with poor
> adaptations, your two examples didn't. For me, computer/software and
> ordinateur/logiciel have their own history (well, now, I'll have to find
> where logiciel come from and I have no clue where to start).
>
> Now for the examples.
>
> For the accepted translations in France, you have the mouse. In France
> every one is using the word souris, which is the exact translation of
> mouse as an animal. So, there is nothing interesting to say about that:
> it has been translated and the translation has been accepted by
> everyone. End of the story. It's probably why Carlos thought in France
> were are more strict than in Spain. It's far from stupid: it's just a
> little part of the story.
>
> For the no need of translation, you have the clavier. Everyone in France
> is using a clavier. Nobody need to speak about keyboard. The reason is
> obvious: it cames from the typing machines which had a keyboard/clavier
> and came along well before the personal computers. So the same word was
> used in the computer world. The translation is obvious and the need of a
> better world doesn't exist.
>
> For real part of what I mean, you have mails and bugs. I'm speaking only
> about computer world here because it's related with Linux. But a lot of
> other domains are fought with more or less success in France to avoid
> using English words.
>
> So for the mails and bugs, they started only in the computer world.
> Nobody objected with that. Then people outside of the techy world
> started to use computers, so they started to use mails and bugs at the
> same time. And so, the 40 morons started to find a need to fight that.
> So, they came out with mels and bogues.
>
> The word mel doesn't exist in French, it's a very new word just designed
> to sound more French and to avoid using an English word. For me, it's
> plain dead stupid and I never use it. And I'm not the only one feeling
> like that: some people are using it other stay with mails. So, that's a
> real example of my answer to Carlos: in France, the strictness depends
> on people.
>
> The bogues are something very different. They are the green things with
> spikes around chestnuts. So, they are an already existing word, sounding
> like the word they mean to replace even if the meaning is different. The
> bug is the thing that create issue. The bogue is the issue you have if
> you try to take it with bare hand. When in the English world, the bug is
> the thing that destroys little part of computers. For me, and for a lot
> of people in France, the idea is stupid. For others, it's a good idea.
>
> So, in France, depending on sensibilities, you can find either mels or
> mails and you can find either bugs or bogues. That's what I mean with
> the more or less spread thing.
>
> It has probably taken you some time to read it. Be assured it took me
> more time to write it. But I enjoyed it, I'm sorry if you didn't like my
> answer. Now, I'll have to dig on the logiciel part. I guess it's related
> with logic, but it's not enough of an explanation: thanks again for your
> question.
>

Back to comp.os.linux.misc | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-15 10:19 +0100
  Re: Floppies "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-15 20:35 +0200
    Re: Floppies peter london <peterlondon@chimia.se> - 2025-09-15 21:40 +0200
      Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-15 23:10 +0000
    Re: Floppies Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-09-19 20:01 +0000
      Re: Floppies "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-19 23:04 +0200
        Re: Floppies Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-09-20 12:39 +0000
          Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-20 16:46 +0100
          Re: Floppies "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-20 20:30 +0200
            Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-21 02:37 +0000
              Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-21 05:01 +0000
                Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-21 06:26 +0000
                Re: Floppies Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2025-09-22 07:04 +0200
            Tomato joke. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-21 15:24 +0200
            Re: Floppies Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-09-21 14:09 +0000
              Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-21 18:36 +0000
              Translations "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-21 22:00 +0200
                Re: Translations The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-21 21:32 +0100
                Re: Translations rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-22 01:16 +0000
                Re: Translations The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-22 13:42 +0100
              Re: Floppies Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-21 22:57 +0100
              Re: Floppies John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-09-22 08:35 -0700
      Re: Floppies Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-09-20 12:15 +0200
        Re: Floppies Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-09-20 14:43 +0000
          Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-20 16:27 +0100
            Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-20 17:46 +0000
              Re: Floppies Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-20 11:12 -0700
              Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-20 18:36 +0000
                Re: Floppies Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-20 15:28 -0700
          Re: Floppies Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-20 19:05 +0100
            Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-21 02:41 +0000
              Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-21 09:32 +0100
                Re: Floppies Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-21 10:00 +0100
                Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-21 10:28 +0100
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-21 19:06 +0000
                "They" (was: Re: Floppies) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-09-21 23:12 +0000
                Re: "They" (was: Re: Floppies) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-22 01:38 +0000
                Re: "They" (was: Re: Floppies) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-22 07:57 +0000
                Re: "They" Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-09-22 09:31 +0100
                Re: "They" Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-22 08:47 -0700
                Re: "They" Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-09-23 08:03 +0100
                Re: "They" Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-23 09:23 -0700
                Re: "They" The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 17:37 +0100
                Re: "They" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-24 02:44 +0000
                Re: "They" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-24 02:34 +0000
                Re: "They" The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-22 13:46 +0100
                Re: "They" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-22 18:22 +0000
                Re: "They" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-09-22 13:49 +0000
                Re: "They" Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-22 17:22 +0000
                Re: "They" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-22 18:21 +0000
                Re: "They" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-22 22:00 +0200
                Re: "They" Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-22 15:19 -0700
                Re: "They" Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 00:07 +0000
                Re: "They" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-23 02:52 +0000
                Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-21 17:48 +0000
                Re: Floppies Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-21 11:13 -0700
                Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-21 20:14 +0100
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-21 20:30 +0000
                Re: Floppies Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-21 13:50 -0700
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-22 01:38 +0000
                Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-22 13:43 +0100
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-22 17:22 +0000
                Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-22 19:23 +0000
                Re: Floppies "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-22 22:02 +0200
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 00:07 +0000
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-21 19:06 +0000
                Lingua franca "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-21 15:35 +0200
                Re: Lingua franca rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-21 17:58 +0000
                Re: Lingua franca The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-21 19:12 +0100
                Re: Lingua franca "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-21 22:09 +0200
                Re: Lingua franca Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-21 19:06 +0000
                Re: Lingua franca "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-21 22:07 +0200
            Re: Floppies Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-09-21 13:35 +0000
            Re: Floppies Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-09-23 16:16 +0200
          Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-20 18:22 +0000
          Re: Floppies "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-20 20:54 +0200
            Re: Floppies Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-09-21 14:24 +0000
          Re: Floppies Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2025-09-21 11:11 +0000
            Re: Floppies "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-21 15:28 +0200
          Re: Floppies Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2025-09-23 16:17 +0200
            Re: Floppies Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 15:56 +0100
              Re: Floppies ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-09-23 15:21 +0000
                Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-23 18:35 +0000
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 21:39 +0000
                Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-24 04:05 +0000
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-24 05:06 +0000
                Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 11:37 +0100
                Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-24 16:53 +0000
                Re: Floppies The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 18:14 +0100
                Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-25 00:19 +0000
                Re: Floppies Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 00:28 +0100
                Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-24 04:07 +0000
              Re: Floppies Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 18:23 +0000
  Re: Floppies rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-15 20:12 +0000

csiph-web