Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE]

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc, alt.comp.os.windows-11, alt.defense
Subject	Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE]
Date	2025-08-24 15:12 +0200
Message-ID	<infrnlxsoq.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <9aadne5uMN4JgTX1nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@giganews.com> <b2tlnlx7n5.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <mgrsogF5phpU3@mid.individual.net> <db2nnlx7rf.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <CBSdndEZf8hO6zT1nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 2025-08-23 10:07, c186282 wrote:
> On 8/22/25 4:59 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-08-22 20:55, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 12:23:39 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not knowing much about actual subs in our navy, I'm a bit surprised 
>>>> that
>>>> a diesel sub vibrates so much, though. Subs are supposed to be silent,
>>>> but perhaps they aren't when they run the old diesel.
>>>
>>> The pigboats were silent -- when they were running on batteries.
>>>
>>> https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2018/june/theres-case-diesels
>>>
>>> Like everything else diesel engines and batteries have improved. It's
>>> interesting a diesel boat in stealth mode is quieter than a nuke.
>>>
>>> It takes a special breed of cat for submarines. I've never been on a
>>> nuclear sub but I have been on a diesel that was in the Groton yard.
>>> Besides the psychological profile I'm not built to be a submariner -- 
>>> or a
>>> tanker for that matter. I don't think there is a height limit anymore 
>>> but
>>> unless you're under 6' you do a lot of ducking.
>>
>> Spain is building a new class of submarines, the S80, with "Air- 
>> independent propulsion (AIP)".
>>
>> «The S-80's air-independent propulsion (AIP) system is based on a 
>> bioethanol-processor consisting of a reaction chamber and several 
>> intermediate Coprox reactors. Provided by Hynergreen from Abengoa, the 
>> system transforms the bioethanol (BioEtOH) into high purity hydrogen. 
>> The output feeds a series of fuel cells from UTC Power company.»
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-80_Plus-class_submarine>
> 
>    AAAAUUUGGHH !!! ... I'll have to study on all that
>    promo-tech gibberish !  :-)
> 
>> There are two built currently, but they run on standard diesels. The 
>> third one, the S81 is scheduled to have the actual AIP, and then it 
>> will be retrofitted on the other two.
> 
>    Um, yea ... let's wait and see .....
> 
>> Which means they are delayed, previously the S82 was scheduled to have 
>> it.
> 
>    Submarines these days - it's nuke or Not Worth It.

Not every country can afford that on its own. We'd have to join efforts 
with some other EU country to do that, and have a lot of people opposition.

And as I mentioned before, in NATO exercises often the non nucs win the 
nucs.


> 
>    BTW, high-rez thermal and 3-D, even deep subs CAN be
>    tracked by satellites. They MAY be at the end of their
>    practical utility.

China is suspected to have the technology. Some sites claim they have.


>    Hypersonics + AI drones ... the likely, NEAR, maybe
>    immediate, future of "defense". Bombers, tanks, subs,
>    ICBMs, carriers - just forget it ...  all Yesterday's
>    Solutions.
> 
>    Studied any history ... know where the term "Lost
>    Generation" appeared ? It was because as WW-1
>    started the old fat Brit generals decided to solve
>    the little German Problem with mass troop/calvary
>    charges, the honorable Olde-Tyme solution to
>    everything. UNFURL THE FLAG and CHARGE !!!

Uff.

> 
>    Alas, the Germans had interlinked machine-gun
>    nests, artillery, mortars ... it was a gigantic
>    slaughter. The generals KEPT UP with the old
>    fix for a rather long time. A million, maybe
>    two, all DEAD on the field to no effect.
> 
>    THIS is kind of where the USA/West is now. We've
>    missed the boat. Expect yesterday's solutions
>    to fix tomorrow's military problems. The Chinese
>    and Russians and N.Koreans KNOW BETTER - and will
>    just SLAUGHTER us en-masse. No nukes required.

The Ukrainians know.

> 
>    Yea yea yea ... old generals and admirals LOVE
>    the idea of massed troops snapping to attention,
>    big big assets. All can be vaporized almost
>    instantly by modern methods.
> 
>    Just sayin'
> 
>    COPE, ADAPT - or DIE.
> 
>    That's how it works.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-21 17:55 -0400
  Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 00:43 +0200
    Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-21 22:40 -0400
      Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-22 04:30 +0000
      Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-22 03:30 -0400
        Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 12:23 +0200
          Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-22 09:59 -0400
            Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 20:50 +0200
              Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 00:34 -0400
                Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 15:05 +0200
                Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-24 19:19 +0000
                Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 23:20 +0200
                Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-24 21:32 +0000
                Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 23:44 +0200
                Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-25 02:13 -0400
                Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-25 11:44 +0100
          Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-22 18:55 +0000
            Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 22:59 +0200
              Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 22:05 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 23:21 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 22:34 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-23 01:28 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 04:13 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-23 11:39 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-24 03:15 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 19:06 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-23 20:12 +0100
              Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 04:07 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 19:04 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-23 20:11 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-24 04:05 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-24 04:20 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 11:28 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 11:27 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 15:14 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 16:59 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-24 19:19 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-23 21:15 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-24 04:16 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 11:19 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-24 19:19 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 11:17 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-24 19:21 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-25 11:24 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-25 17:53 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 23:29 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-25 11:42 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-25 13:36 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-25 13:06 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-25 14:34 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-26 03:51 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-26 10:36 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-26 06:11 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-26 08:29 -0700
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-26 19:39 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2025-08-27 16:53 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-27 12:52 -0700
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-27 22:02 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-27 21:31 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-28 04:15 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-28 10:36 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-28 06:24 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-28 12:26 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-28 04:11 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-28 09:44 -0700
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-28 18:03 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-28 18:10 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-28 12:12 -0700
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-29 10:52 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-28 21:44 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-29 03:32 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-29 11:12 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-29 17:43 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-29 19:16 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-27 21:29 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-27 20:40 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-27 14:56 -0700
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-28 02:30 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-28 03:45 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-26 04:23 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-26 10:34 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-26 06:07 -0400
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-26 19:26 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-26 21:51 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-26 19:27 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-26 19:23 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-26 21:48 +0100
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-26 19:21 +0000
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 15:12 +0200
                Re: Submarines [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 17:07 +0100
          Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-22 23:29 -0700
            Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-23 21:53 +0000
              Re: Floppies [Was: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 11:24 +0100
        Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 11:26 +0100
          Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-22 10:00 -0400
            Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 19:41 +0100
      Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-22 12:02 +0200
        Re: OS Support for old, cheap hardware ... Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-23 21:21 +0000
          Re: OS Support for old, cheap hardware ... The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 11:23 +0100
            Re: OS Support for old, cheap hardware ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 23:37 +0200
          Re: OS Support for old, cheap hardware ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 15:18 +0200
            Re: OS Support for old, cheap hardware ... The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-24 16:58 +0100
              Re: OS Support for old, cheap hardware ... "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-24 23:37 +0200
    Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 11:22 +0100
      Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-22 10:47 +0000
        Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-22 19:39 +0100
        Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-22 19:23 +0000
          Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-23 01:38 -0400
            Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-08-23 18:02 +0000
              Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-08-24 03:49 -0400
                Re: The "Standards" Game Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-25 03:12 +0000
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-25 11:48 +0100
                Present at the Creation (Re: The "Standards" Game) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-08-25 13:03 +0000
  Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-08-21 22:17 -0700

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