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Re: Nuclear plants.

From Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
Newsgroups alt.comp.os.windows-11, comp.os.linux.misc
Subject Re: Nuclear plants.
Date 2025-10-08 07:32 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <10c541k$1epec$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (19 earlier) <10c0dg7$9vip$1@dont-email.me> <10c0m0j$cf58$1@dont-email.me> <h4ldrlx2r5.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <10c3c85$11mig$1@dont-email.me> <10c3qjk$15rbd$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 10/7/2025 11:39 AM, Chris wrote:
>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2025-10-06 17:08, Chris wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 06/10/2025 11:49, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/10/2025 6:52 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/10/2025 20:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>>> At some point in the future, civilization dissolves. The sites are
>>>>>>>> still hot, so signage has to be designed now so that the beings 50K
>>>>>>>> years from now can read them.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Oh dear.
>>>>>>> Another person who believes that nuclear waste can last 'thousands of
>>>>>>> years ' (but lead or mercury which last forever are just fine) AND
>>>>>>> that this *very same* wastes is violently radioactive.
>>>>>>> Sorry pal, You can have one or the other. Not both.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sorry. How is Lead (which, supposedly, protect us from Radioactivity)
>>>>>> ALSO be "violently radioactive"??
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Well exactly., But it does last forever and its poisonous.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I never said that lead or mercury were radioactive. I just said - or at
>>>>> least implied - that they were toxic, and lasted fiorever.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'll go for 'the other', please.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> High level waste is gone in 300 years for the most part.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> .... as long as anyone/thing lasts those 300 years.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's not THAT radioactive to start with, The REALLY nasty shit is gone
>>>>> in a couple of decades.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dure8ng which  time the reactor site is securely manned and its left
>>>>> where it is, as that is, in fact, safer than moving it.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> So what's the situation with Chernobyl, then? Or Sellafield? They both had
>>>> accidents decades ago and are still very high risk areas.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Because he is simply wrong. I trust the authorities that prohibit going 
>>> there, not him.
>> 
>> I don't actually disagree with his general view; that the risks from
>> nuclear power (including waste) are massively overblown. I'm just
>> questioning the specifics. Although, in Chernobyl we do know that animal
>> life is thriving within the exclusion zone. 
>> 
>> The german policy after Fukushima was not based in science or fact and now
>> they are very dependent on russian gas. Which is far from ideal these days.
>> 
>> 
>> I saw a representation of the total global volume of radioactive and it's
>> tiny! Compared to the huge swathes of the planet that are no-go zones due
>> to fossil fuels, I just don't get the problem. 
>> 
> 
> There's a difference between "prompt" health and long term exposure.
> And there is a difference between "I am eating the fucking stuff"
> and "I am just walking by the site in my bunny suit". For example,
> if you eat things that accumulate in your bone marrow, this is
> really bad as a hobby.

Correct. 

> As an example of the "prompt" exposure effect, when one of
> those silly criticality experiments was done, there was
> a scientist in the middle of the room, and a military guard
> on duty at the door of the room. When the scientist accidentally
> brought "two things" close together, and sprayed himself with
> a lethal gamma, the scientist as usual, did the math on the
> spot and concluded he was dead. And a day or two later, he
> was gone (as predicted).
> 
> Well, what of the guard in the room ? The dude lived into his
> late 60's! His prompt dose, didn't "tip him over" in the
> same two day stretch that finished off the scientist.

Exactly. The type of radiation really, really matters. 

For example, the alpha particle radiation of polonium-210 is safe unless
you ingest it. Which is what happened to Alexander Litvinenko when he was
invited for a drink by russian FSB agents in London. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko

> But matters take a turn, when the variety of nucleotides
> enters the food chain. Cows and cows milk with strontium
> in them and so on. Or the incorporation of iodine 137
> after a nuke releases a gas cloud from a case of
> indigestion (for which we give the citizens around
> the plant, a jar of iodine tablets to dilute the
> radioactive iodine potentially incoming).

Bio-accumulation is not limited to radioactive waste. Heavy metals and DDT
are classic examples. 

> The animals walking around Chernobyl, if they were grass
> eaters and raising young by breast feeding, the state
> of their health through their lifetime might be
> quite different than an animal which just happens to
> "walk through a dirty spot".

The area is a thriving and healthy eco-system. 
https://thebiologist.rsb.org.uk/biologist-features/out-of-the-ashes

It seems that humans are the biggest threat to life on earth. Remove them;
life proliferates. No surprises there...

> Take the airport firefighter chemicals, which airport
> firefighters used to practice with at practice sites.
> There was an environmental mess at multiple of these sites.
> Great. So authorities thought "oh my, there's a
> concentrated dirty spot right here" on the map. well,
> a university professor, purely on a whim when reading
> about this in his area, had water samples gathered
> from wells some distance from the site. What did the
> lab results show ? The fucking chemicals had gone
> at least two miles and were above the allowed threshold.
> Well, no one had predicted such a result. 

If they'd asked environmental scientists they would absolutely have
predicted it. 

> The officials
> thought "all is well, little dirty spot, now stop
> bothering me". 

That's the problem with officials. They just think rather investigated
properly. It's not in their job description, and so don't care. 

> 
> There is background radiation around you right now.
> You body has the ability to clean up some amount
> of damaged DNA material. We don't absolutely need
> a perfectly clean environment. But just throwing
> care to the wind and saying "there probably won't
> be enough plutonium in that drum to cause a problem",

No-one is promoting a careless attitude. Nuclear is only viable because it
*is* safe due to high regulation. 

Meanwhile thousands are dying yearly due to the effects human-led climate
change from overuse of fossil fuels.

Over 1000 in the UK this summer alone...
https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/doncaster-imperial-college-london-birmingham-manchester-city-centre-people-b2827972.html

That's on top of the many deaths and injuries to workers in fossil-fuel
related accidents. Only *solar energy* is safer than nuclear:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-from-energy-production-per-twh

> that's just careless thinking. Pooping on the lawn
> is likely safe too, except if it is E.Coli O157:H7,
> which is... really dangerous and killed people as
> a poop. That's our Walkerton Incident. Who knows,
> maybe we're a bit more careful now?
> 
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_E._coli_outbreak   # pathetic, really...
>                                                               # human nature, on display

That makes E. coli far more dangerous than the Fukushima incident. Do we
ban farms because of this risk? Of course not! So why ban nuclear like
germany did? Critical thinking failure. 

> So that's an example of having thrown caution to the
> winds, and not keeping the required level of biosecurity
> on a water supply. When I'm at the cottage, do I poop
> next to my drinking water well ? The country folk will
> likely look at your cottage layout and pick a spot
> for you to poop :-) And they have Mike (good name choice)
> in the Microbiology lab at my government job, to
> thank for checking water samples for stuff like the
> E.coli . Mike wouldn't let you into his lab either.
> We had a heavy metals lab (atomic absorption spectroscopy
> check for heavy metals) and the microbiology
> lab, for running drinking water samples (and that would
> not be the only labs doing that in town).

I've no idea what you're trying to say with your poop analogy, but we are
in agreement that regulation and oversight are critical in any industry. 

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Thread

Re: Nuclear plants. Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2025-10-03 08:59 +1000
  Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-03 14:20 +0200
    Re: Nuclear plants. Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2025-10-04 15:12 +1000
      Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-04 02:01 -0400
        Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-04 08:02 +0100
        Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-05 21:41 +0200
        Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-05 21:47 +0200
          Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-05 21:08 -0400
            Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-06 13:37 +0200
              Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-06 13:45 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-07 10:28 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-07 10:35 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-07 11:15 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-07 11:37 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-09 00:00 +1100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-08 14:24 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-10-08 17:31 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-09 12:34 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-09 11:29 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-09 13:10 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-10 23:43 +1100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-08 23:52 +1100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-08 13:56 +0100
          Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-10-05 20:57 -0700
          Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-06 08:52 +0100
            Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-06 05:00 -0400
              Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-06 10:51 +0100
              Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-07 11:07 +0100
            Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-06 21:49 +1100
              Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-06 13:42 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-06 15:08 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-06 22:24 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Harold Stevens <wookie@aspen.localdomain> - 2025-10-06 15:56 -0500
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-07 09:31 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-07 10:46 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-07 11:28 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-07 13:05 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-07 12:35 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-07 12:40 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-07 13:55 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-07 13:01 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-07 09:28 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-07 15:39 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-07 15:44 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-10-07 19:57 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-08 09:29 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-10-08 17:31 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-09 12:33 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-10-09 19:55 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-10 10:06 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-10 13:34 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-10 14:03 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-10 12:24 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-10 14:04 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-10 21:33 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-11 11:22 +0000
                Genocide "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-11 14:46 +0200
                Genocide and terrorism Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2025-10-13 05:14 +0200
                Re: Genocide c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-10-13 03:04 -0400
                Re: Genocide The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 10:32 +0100
                Re: Genocide "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 12:06 +0200
                Re: Genocide The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 11:23 +0100
                Re: Genocide "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 12:50 +0200
                Re: Genocide The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 12:34 +0100
                Re: Genocide "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-14 09:51 +0200
                Re: Genocide Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 17:45 +0100
                Re: Genocide "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 19:25 +0200
                Re: Genocide "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 12:05 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-12 20:41 +1100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-12 12:29 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-12 21:24 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 05:25 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-13 06:33 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 10:23 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-13 18:59 +0000
                israel/Palestine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 12:18 +0200
                Re: israel/Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 11:29 +0100
                israel/Palestine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 12:15 +0200
                Re: israel/Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 11:29 +0100
                Re: israel/Palestine rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-10-13 18:51 +0000
                Re: israel/Palestine Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-13 19:12 +0000
                Re: israel/Palestine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 21:26 +0200
                Re: israel/Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-14 10:09 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2025-10-13 02:47 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 05:28 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-13 12:47 +0100
                OT: Israel and Palestine (was: Re: Nuclear plants.) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 18:31 +0100
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-13 19:05 +0100
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-10-13 18:49 +0000
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-14 10:06 +0100
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-13 19:17 +0000
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-14 10:10 +0100
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-14 00:26 +0100
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-14 11:24 +0100
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-14 13:08 +0100
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-10-14 18:12 +0000
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine Harold Stevens <wookie@aspen.localdomain> - 2025-10-14 15:08 -0500
                Re: OT: Israel and Palestine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-15 12:04 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-13 12:20 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-10-10 09:01 -0700
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-10-10 19:56 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-10-10 02:35 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 07:32 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-08 09:27 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-07 09:25 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 07:36 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-08 11:20 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 17:27 +0000
                OT: STS risks awareness in NASA (was: Re: Nuclear plants.) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-09 11:14 +0100
                Re: OT: STS risks awareness in NASA (was: Re: Nuclear plants.) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-10-09 19:55 +0000
                Re: OT: STS risks awareness in NASA c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-10-10 02:23 -0400
                Re: OT: STS risks awareness in NASA The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-10 10:14 +0100
                Re: OT: STS risks awareness in NASA rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-10-10 19:53 +0000
                Re: OT: STS risks awareness in NASA Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-12 09:21 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-09 12:19 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-11 21:18 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-10-12 01:09 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-12 00:05 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-12 11:19 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-12 21:49 +1100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-10-12 12:48 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-10-12 18:36 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-12 12:40 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-12 12:35 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-12 12:33 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-10-12 18:30 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-09 00:04 +1100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-08 14:31 +0100
        Re: Nuclear plants. Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2025-10-09 11:04 +1100
      Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-04 08:01 +0100
        Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-04 04:59 -0400

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