Groups > comp.lang.forth > #20851

Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful
Date	2013-03-19 18:56 +0100
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<kia8t2$kn6$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <hdKdnRluwIcFgdjMnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@supernews.com> <ki5p5f$ocf$1@online.de> <51470b3f.396791928@news.demon.co.uk> <ki7uco$oer$1@online.de> <5148337d.472630457@news.demon.co.uk>

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Stephen Pelc wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 21:45:11 +0100, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
> wrote:
> 
>>> In addition, you have PIC24/30 which naturally has 16 bit cells, but
>>> the return address is larger. There's MSP430X and more in the embedded
>>> world which break the linear return address assumption. There are
>>> plenty of CPU designs in production which are 16 bit CPUs with
>>> extended addressing capability.
>>
>>Yes, and they break all sorts of assumptions, if you want to implement a
>>Forth that addresses both the entire address range *and* is 16 bits.  In
>>Forth, a cell is an address.  If your address doesn't fit into a cell,
>>it's probably not a Forth.
> 
> <rant>
> Ho, hum ... when you're a desktop programmer the common practice
> argument rules. When you're an embedded programmer, anything goes.

Yes, that's how embedded system makers deal with the situation.  The point 
is that "anything goes" is not a standard, even if you formaly write it down 
in a document.

> If I follow you, the standard is irrelevant, especially if it
> stops *me/you* from doing what *I/you* want.
> </rant>

If a standard is too inclusive, it's nailing a pudding to the wall.  We had 
discussions with Andrew Haley about using C as portable assembler, and 
Andrew reminded us that standard C has no well-defined semantics.  It's a 
pudding, and it's a pudding, because people said "we want our beloved 60 
bit, 6 bits per char, one complement CDC6400 have a standard C compiler".  
The question then would be: Do you run C on it?  Answer: No, it's Fortran 
only.

Something similar is done on small embedded Forths.  Yes, they want their 
ideosyncracies included in the standard.  But do you write standard code on 
them?  Usually not.  I wouldn't insist that the b16's limitation influence 
the Forth200x document.  The b16 is a Forth procssor, but not a standard 
Forth processor.  There are thinks you can't implement on the b16, like 
CATCH and THROW.  And there are things you won't implement on a typical b16 
use case, like an interpreter.  You cross-compile or use an umbilical 
system.

> If I read the standard correctly, an address is a data address. Code
> addresses feature very rarely.

We have xts.  A system with address extensions probably would have a table 
in data memory to translate from xts to code addresses.

However, the AVR people have even worse problems: Their CPUs usually have 
not enough RAM to fit strings into it.  So you have the strings in the 
instruction memory, and there, you can have up to 24 bit addresses.  So 
something like S" " will give you an instruction address... it's non-
standard, and non-portable, but it works fine for this purpose.  String 
constants best reside in flash, and that's a different address space with 
different address size on the AVR.

> Having tried 32 bit Forths on 16 bit CPUs, I really can not recommend
> them.

Agreed.  On the other hand, using a 16 bit Forth for more than 64kB memory 
is something I tried, and I really can not recommend it, either (volksForth 
83 on the Atari ST was a 16 bit Forth - the CPU architecture was 32 bit, 
addresses were 24 bits, and the data bus was just 16 bits).  The larger 
program I wrote there had both more than 64k of code (requiring overlays), 
and way more than 64k of data.  Not nice.

There's a good reason why Cortex M1 is so popular: It's a 32 bit CPU which 
is just about the die size of a modern 8051 implementation, and a pretty 
regular instruction set.  Just the LSB of the return address is always 1 
;-).  I've thought about the most elegant way to deal with that:  Offset 
HERE by 1 in Thumb-2 mode, and make CODE-ALIGN align to odd addresses.  You 
put actual code down at even addresses, but if you put data there, like 
strings, it's going to be odd addresses.  Then the address on the return 
stack is actually correct.  The system's "LIT (defined : "lit ( -- addr u ) 
r> count 2dup + code-aligned >r ;) could know that there is an additional 
byte free, and save space using this carnal knowledge.

> Ignoring the real world is not a good approach either.

The point here is: You should just stand up and say "this MSP430x with 
address extension Forth is *not* 100% Forth200x compliant, for good reasons, 
and the environmental limitation is documented here: <link>".  The people 
with their AVR Forths or 8051 Forths do the same.  The expectation on an 
embedded microcontroller is different.  On a desktop or tablet PC with 
plenty of memory, I expect a Forth system to be fully compliant and have all 
wordsets present (including floating point ;-).  On an embedded system, I 
don't expect that.  I expect core wordset, and some ideosyncracies to be 
able to use all features and cram the code into the available space.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 07:10 -0700
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-15 17:06 +0000
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 11:27 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:06 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:43 -0700
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-15 12:17 -1000
        Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 13:25 -0700
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 00:18 +0200
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-17 02:13 +0100
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-16 15:29 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 02:03 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 15:23 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 04:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 18:20 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 13:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 21:45 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 12:13 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:42 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 17:04 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 17:54 +0000
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                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 14:56 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 21:55 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 14:16 -0700
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                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 20:35 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:52 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 18:56 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 13:18 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:37 +0100
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                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 06:58 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:05 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 05:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 19:24 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:42 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:54 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 17:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 12:51 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:25 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-21 16:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-21 18:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:07 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 18:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:48 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 01:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:30 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 03:57 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-22 03:39 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 09:03 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 12:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 14:19 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 13:01 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 14:44 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:34 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 15:39 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:38 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:54 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 12:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 17:38 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 13:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-23 11:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-24 01:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:04 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-25 10:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 16:05 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 12:32 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:28 +0000
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 12:40 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 17:23 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 11:02 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-19 03:25 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-18 19:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:17 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:29 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:11 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 16:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 15:06 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:27 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 11:09 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 10:25 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:08 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 13:04 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-20 19:22 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-31 08:51 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-02 15:50 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:16 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-03 11:57 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-03 10:25 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-03 16:45 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-20 10:27 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 12:03 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:47 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 16:40 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-01 02:12 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-01 16:58 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-02 04:20 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-01 16:39 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-02 14:15 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-02 21:12 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 04:17 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-02 15:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:36 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-03 04:10 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-03 04:03 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-03 16:13 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-03 11:54 -0500
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 22:27 -0700
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 10:10 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 13:00 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 23:34 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 16:44 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-17 23:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-18 23:32 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 08:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 00:33 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 09:39 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:11 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 10:30 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-03-19 22:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 12:09 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 19:23 +0100
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-16 06:34 +0000
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful junnia@gmail.com - 2013-03-19 07:45 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:38 +0200
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-23 01:31 +0200

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