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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #20768
| Date | 2013-03-17 18:20 -1000 |
|---|---|
| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
| Organization | FORTH, Inc. |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful |
| References | (2 earlier) <ki35b7$jnn$1@online.de> <hdKdnRluwIcFgdjMnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@supernews.com> <ki5p5f$ocf$1@online.de> <1Z-dnc9fxY0a8dvMnZ2dnUVZ_r2dnZ2d@supernews.com> <ki60uc$4jl$1@online.de> |
| Message-ID | <v8adneJF46mEC9vMnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink) |
On 3/17/13 5:16 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote: > Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > >> On 3/17/13 3:03 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote: >>> Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: >>> >>>> On 3/16/13 3:13 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote: >>> What are the other situations, apart from low-end controllers which have >>> all >>> sorts of awkward issues with their architecture? The days of large >>> segmented 8086 Forth systems where the return stack contains two cells >>> (segment and offset) are gone. An 8051 Forth or an AVR Forth might not be >>> able to access the return stack, but it also has several separate address >>> spaces, which makes programs for it non-portable in any case. >> >> Well, that's a biggie, since microcontrollers in general represent a >> great deal of Forth's target market. > > But none of these small microcontroller Forths ever were fully ANS Forth > compatible! If you want to embrace an AVR or 8051, you have to deal with > their harward architecture, and most Forths do so by adding instructions to > fetch from the instruction memory, like i@ i!. And then strings with s" end > up in this memory, making string programs essentially non-portable. Well, we cross-compile to them, but from the point of view of the application programmer, they're quite familiar. You don't have to use funny @ and ! operators because applications fetch from absolute addresses and store into data space. Code that needs to be portable is. > We've ported Gforth to several small microcontrollers, but the Harward > architecture ones are non-Gforth-machines. Or non-ANS. And unlike the > one's complement excuse, there's no excuse here. Several 94 TC members hat > 8051 controllers. > >>> The Forth 200x TC thinks about target audience, and very small Forth >>> systems for architectures that are too limited for a full standard >>> implementation is >>> outside the scope. These system should implement the standard in good >>> faith, but when they reach limits, they should be free to solve these >>> problems in a non-portable, platform-specific manner. >> >> Whether there's a resident Forth in the microcontroller or not, it's >> still very useful to be able to port application functions. > > Yes. > >>> Same for one complement systems. They are extinct, even though the >>> supercomputer museum of the vintage computer club is just a few hundret >>> meters from my house, and they have some nice dinosaurs there. Nobody >>> writes new programs for these systems, expecting them to be portable. >> >> Yep, agree with that one, too, now. I will point out, though, that in >> the early 90's two of the TC members had working one's complement >> computers. > > Really? What was that? Greg Bailey and a friend of his each had one. I don't remember its name... Red[something] I think. We had another member who had a nibble-address microcontroller, and that influenced some things, too. The first computer I ever did much programming on was a CDC6400, which was ones-complement. I learned to love -0. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 07:10 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-15 17:06 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 11:27 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:06 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:43 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-15 12:17 -1000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 13:25 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 00:18 +0200
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-17 02:13 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-16 15:29 -1000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 02:03 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 15:23 -1000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 04:16 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 18:20 -1000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 13:07 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 21:45 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 12:13 -1000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:46 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:42 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 17:04 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 17:54 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 13:30 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:33 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:03 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 14:56 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 21:55 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 14:16 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 02:09 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 20:35 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:52 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 18:56 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 13:18 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:37 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:33 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:30 -0400
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-18 11:28 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-18 15:39 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:07 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 06:58 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:05 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 05:27 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 19:24 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:42 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:54 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 17:49 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 12:51 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:25 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:31 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-21 16:31 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:48 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-21 18:07 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:49 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:07 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 18:31 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:48 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 01:49 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:30 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 03:57 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-22 03:39 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 09:03 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 08:13 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 12:39 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 14:19 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 13:01 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 08:13 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 14:44 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:34 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 15:39 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:38 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:54 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 12:27 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 17:38 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 13:48 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-23 11:53 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-24 01:46 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:04 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-25 10:06 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 16:05 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 12:32 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:28 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 12:40 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 17:23 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 17:35 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 11:02 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-19 03:25 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-18 19:35 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:17 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:29 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:06 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:11 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 16:16 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 15:06 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:27 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:49 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 11:09 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 10:25 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:08 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 13:04 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:12 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:39 -0500
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-20 19:22 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 17:35 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-20 10:27 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 12:03 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:47 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 16:40 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 22:27 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 10:10 +0200
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 18:15 +0200
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 13:00 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 23:34 +0200
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 16:44 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-17 23:53 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-18 23:32 +0200
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 08:12 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 00:33 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 09:39 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:11 +0200
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 10:30 -1000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-03-19 22:31 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 12:09 -1000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 19:23 +0100
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-16 06:34 +0000
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful junnia@gmail.com - 2013-03-19 07:45 -0700
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:38 +0200
Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-23 01:31 +0200
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