Groups > comp.lang.forth > #20805

Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful

Date	2013-03-18 12:13 -1000
From	Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com>
Organization	FORTH, Inc
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful
References	(2 earlier) <ki35b7$jnn$1@online.de> <hdKdnRluwIcFgdjMnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@supernews.com> <ki5p5f$ocf$1@online.de> <51470b3f.396791928@news.demon.co.uk> <ki7uco$oer$1@online.de>
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On 3/18/2013 10:45 AM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> Stephen Pelc wrote:
...
>>> Stephen Pelc says "porting is an ego-less discipline",
>>
>> And you now agree with me, but do not seem to like some of the
>> conclusions I draw.
>
> Yes, because you implement your system with way too much ego.  If you don't
> find a solution for a programmer's problem, you don't question the design
> decisions of your system, but the programmer's problem.

Neither MPE nor FORTH, Inc. is dealing with single programmers, but with 
a community of users who are all trying to write and maintain 
challenging applications. We listen to all of them, and adapt our 
products to meet their needs as much as possible. If we heard our users 
express a need for the kind of return stack usage under discussion here, 
we'd try hard to support it. But, in fact, we haven't heard that except 
from a few people here.

...
>>> I understand that commerical vendors like vendor-lock-in, and
>>> therefore have an incentive to be different.
>>
>> That's rubbish, except that vendors who provide facilities that
>> are not provided by other vendows may have an advantage. For MPE,
>> it's functionality that counts. In general, the vendors only write
>> Forth kernels when they absolutely have to. For MPE, kernel
>> changes have been driven by standards and technology changes.
>> The basic VFX chassis is now 15 years old.
>
> It's not about things like that.  Look e.g. at the C interface.  SwiftForth,
> VFX, and Gforth all have somewhat different interfaces.  Some differences
> are there for a reason, many are just there, because each of us just wrote a
> C interface without looking at the others.  Or at some bigger picture.  But
> we started to agree that we need to agree on something common.
>
> The ego solution is what you did: Release your system for adaption.  The
> ego-less solution would be to adopt another system.  You now are expecting
> the others to have less ego and adapt your system.  Well, I can only speak
> for the Gforth team: We tried the ego solution before, and released our
> system open source from day one.  Nobody else even looked at it.  It's not
> working that way.

I'm not at all sure the world (of Forth) would be a better place if 
everyone just adopted the first model that came along. That would result 
in everyone still using 16-bit ITC systems with no floating point or 
file access, and we would all be driving Model T Fords.

The fact that people continually strive to improve a technology (any 
technology) is how it develops.

>>> Because I think that
>>> portability for applications is worth the effort to smooth down all the
>>> difference of these operating systems.
>>
>> But are you prepared to dampen your guru code habits to help achieve
>> this desirable goal. Note that I don't want you not to write guru
>> code, I want you
>> 1) to put "here there be dragons" comments in the source code,
>
> That's always a good idea.
>
>> 2) to admit that Forth systems are different for good reasons,
>
> Maybe.  I'm in a year-long argument with Anton over converting Gforth to a
> unitoken system with comp: like VFX.  I'm in favor of the VFX solution, but
> actually, the VFX solution requires to nail down (or rephrase) some parts of
> the semantics definitions in the standard.

And this is an ego-less enterprise?

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 07:10 -0700
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-15 17:06 +0000
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 11:27 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:06 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:43 -0700
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-15 12:17 -1000
        Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 13:25 -0700
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 00:18 +0200
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-17 02:13 +0100
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-16 15:29 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 02:03 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 15:23 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 04:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 18:20 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 13:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 21:45 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 12:13 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:42 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 17:04 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 17:54 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 13:30 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:33 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:03 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 14:56 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 21:55 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 14:16 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 02:09 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 20:35 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:52 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 18:56 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 13:18 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:37 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:33 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:30 -0400
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-18 11:28 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-18 15:39 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 06:58 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:05 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 05:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 19:24 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:42 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:54 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 17:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 12:51 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:25 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-21 16:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-21 18:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:07 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 18:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:48 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 01:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:30 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 03:57 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-22 03:39 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 09:03 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 12:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 14:19 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 13:01 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 14:44 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:34 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 15:39 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:38 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:54 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 12:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 17:38 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 13:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-23 11:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-24 01:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:04 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-25 10:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 16:05 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 12:32 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:28 +0000
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 12:40 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 17:23 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 11:02 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-19 03:25 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-18 19:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:17 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:29 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:11 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 16:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 15:06 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:27 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 11:09 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 10:25 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:08 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 13:04 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-20 19:22 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-31 08:51 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-20 10:27 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 12:03 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:47 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 16:40 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-01 02:12 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-01 16:58 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-02 04:20 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-01 16:39 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 04:17 -0500
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 22:27 -0700
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 10:10 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 13:00 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 23:34 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 16:44 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-17 23:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-18 23:32 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 08:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 00:33 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 09:39 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:11 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 10:30 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-03-19 22:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 12:09 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 19:23 +0100
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-16 06:34 +0000
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful junnia@gmail.com - 2013-03-19 07:45 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:38 +0200
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-23 01:31 +0200

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