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Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful
Date 2013-03-18 04:16 +0100
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <ki60uc$4jl$1@online.de> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <05170318008434@frunobulax.edu> <ki35b7$jnn$1@online.de> <hdKdnRluwIcFgdjMnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@supernews.com> <ki5p5f$ocf$1@online.de> <1Z-dnc9fxY0a8dvMnZ2dnUVZ_r2dnZ2d@supernews.com>

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Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:

> On 3/17/13 3:03 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/16/13 3:13 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> What are the other situations, apart from low-end controllers which have
>> all
>> sorts of awkward issues with their architecture?  The days of large
>> segmented 8086 Forth systems where the return stack contains two cells
>> (segment and offset) are gone. An 8051 Forth or an AVR Forth might not be
>> able to access the return stack, but it also has several separate address
>> spaces, which makes programs for it non-portable in any case.
> 
> Well, that's a biggie, since microcontrollers in general represent a
> great deal of Forth's target market.

But none of these small microcontroller Forths ever were fully ANS Forth 
compatible!  If you want to embrace an AVR or 8051, you have to deal with 
their harward architecture, and most Forths do so by adding instructions to 
fetch from the instruction memory, like i@ i!.  And then strings with s" end 
up in this memory, making string programs essentially non-portable.

We've ported Gforth to several small microcontrollers, but the Harward 
architecture ones are non-Gforth-machines.  Or non-ANS.  And unlike the 
one's complement excuse, there's no excuse here.  Several 94 TC members hat 
8051 controllers.

>> The Forth 200x TC thinks about target audience, and very small Forth
>> systems for architectures that are too limited for a full standard
>> implementation is
>> outside the scope.  These system should implement the standard in good
>> faith, but when they reach limits, they should be free to solve these
>> problems in a non-portable, platform-specific manner.
> 
> Whether there's a resident Forth in the microcontroller or not, it's
> still very useful to be able to port application functions.

Yes.

>> Same for one complement systems.  They are extinct, even though the
>> supercomputer museum of the vintage computer club is just a few hundret
>> meters from my house, and they have some nice dinosaurs there.  Nobody
>> writes new programs for these systems, expecting them to be portable.
> 
> Yep, agree with that one, too, now. I will point out, though, that in
> the early 90's two of the TC members had working one's complement
> computers.

Really?  What was that?

> There's also an awful lot of bad code around involving return stack
> manipulation in algorithms that could be done more straightforwardly.
> This discussion has shown it's not an essential capability.

You can swap it for doing a lot of macro inlining, which then consumes a lot 
of dictionary space; something you may not have in a small controller.  And 
what was the place where Forth is frequently used?

> Someone who really likes to do this can certainly declare a dependence
> on a system providing that kind of return stack.

Yes.  The standard is modular, you can do this sort of things.

> It isn't just a matter of "ego", it's also a matter of determining what
> your users want and how best to serve them. Sometimes this requires
> optimizing for performance over compatibility with 40-year-old usage
> that has been ruled "not portable" for 20 years, because more users care
> about performance than antique standards.

I've explained that IMHO it's not a performance problem.  Done properly in 
an analytic compiler a few lines of code should be sufficient to implement 
this kind of return stack manipulations, and optimize the return stack usage 
away when it's not needed.  The approach of optimizing compiled code is that 
you are allowed to do it if it is save to do.  And maybe, you need the 
programmer's assistance in some cases, to keep the compiler small.  Some 
"don't-inline" flag or so will do.

There were several cases of return-stack manipulation in MINOS, used for 
higher order functions.  Stephen's question was what would be the right way 
to do that without return stack manipulation, and the answer is "with 
quotations".  Now, quotations aren't standard, either.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 07:10 -0700
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-15 17:06 +0000
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 11:27 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:06 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:43 -0700
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-15 12:17 -1000
        Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 13:25 -0700
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 00:18 +0200
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-17 02:13 +0100
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-16 15:29 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 02:03 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 15:23 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 04:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 18:20 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 13:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 21:45 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 12:13 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:42 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 17:04 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 17:54 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 13:30 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:33 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:03 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 14:56 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 21:55 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 14:16 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 02:09 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 20:35 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:52 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 18:56 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 13:18 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:37 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:33 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:30 -0400
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-18 11:28 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-18 15:39 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 06:58 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:05 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 05:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 19:24 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:42 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:54 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 17:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 12:51 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:25 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-21 16:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-21 18:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:07 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 18:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:48 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 01:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:30 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 03:57 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-22 03:39 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 09:03 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 12:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 14:19 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 13:01 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 14:44 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:34 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 15:39 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:38 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:54 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 12:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 17:38 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 13:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-23 11:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-24 01:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:04 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-25 10:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 16:05 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 12:32 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:28 +0000
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 12:40 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 17:23 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 11:02 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-19 03:25 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-18 19:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:17 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:29 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:11 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 16:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 15:06 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:27 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 11:09 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 10:25 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:08 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 13:04 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-20 19:22 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-20 10:27 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 12:03 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:47 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 16:40 +0000
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 22:27 -0700
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 10:10 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 13:00 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 23:34 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 16:44 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-17 23:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-18 23:32 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 08:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 00:33 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 09:39 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:11 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 10:30 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-03-19 22:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 12:09 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 19:23 +0100
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-16 06:34 +0000
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful junnia@gmail.com - 2013-03-19 07:45 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:38 +0200
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-23 01:31 +0200

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