Groups > comp.lang.forth > #20801

Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful
Date	2013-03-18 21:45 +0100
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<ki7uco$oer$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <05170318008434@frunobulax.edu> <ki35b7$jnn$1@online.de> <hdKdnRluwIcFgdjMnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@supernews.com> <ki5p5f$ocf$1@online.de> <51470b3f.396791928@news.demon.co.uk>

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Stephen Pelc wrote:
> ARM Cortex, you know the controllers with 1 Mb Flash and 192 kb RAM,
> always has bit 0 of the return address set to 1. In my world, this is
> the dominant 32 bit embedded CPU of the moment.

In my world, too.

> It's also the dominant
> tablet CPU in the Cortex A series, although much of the code for these
> uses the ARM32 instruction set rather than the Thumb-2 instruction
> set.

The ARM return address causes problems when you inline data between code.  
For other return stack tricks, you treat the return address as some opaque 
token, and this thing won't case problems.

I compile Gforth to ARM32, not to Thumb-2, because you have a gigabyte of 
RAM on a tablet.  The problem with calling from Thumb-2 code is that this 
bit indicates whether to return to ARM32 or to Thumb-2 code; which allows 
the compiler to mix both modes as he likes.

If you have just one single mode, this isn't a big problem. Just toggle the 
LSB on all >Rs, R>s and R@.

> In addition, you have PIC24/30 which naturally has 16 bit cells, but
> the return address is larger. There's MSP430X and more in the embedded
> world which break the linear return address assumption. There are
> plenty of CPU designs in production which are 16 bit CPUs with
> extended addressing capability.

Yes, and they break all sorts of assumptions, if you want to implement a 
Forth that addresses both the entire address range *and* is 16 bits.  In 
Forth, a cell is an address.  If your address doesn't fit into a cell, it's 
probably not a Forth.

> Michael Gassanenko made a proposal about return stack addressing some
> years ago. When we did the ARM Cortex and found problems because of
> bit 0 in the return address, it was his papers that provided the
> solution.

What do you use?  The bit 0 is to indicate Thumb 2 encoding.  You could 
either leave Thumb 2 mode before you call, or you could make sure you are 
always in Thumb 2 mode when calling, and toggle that bit in >R R> and R@.

>>Stephen Pelc says "porting is an ego-less discipline",
> 
> And you now agree with me, but do not seem to like some of the
> conclusions I draw.

Yes, because you implement your system with way too much ego.  If you don't 
find a solution for a programmer's problem, you don't question the design 
decisions of your system, but the programmer's problem.

> All of these are now as you want them in VFX. In return, system
> implementers only ask that you help us to help you.

Help Nr. 1 is to suggest a way to allow the analytic compiler to deal with 
that problem itself.

>>So I came to the conclusion: Writing portable systems is an ego-less
>>discipline.  You should not try to be different.  You should try to be the
>>same.
> 
> That's a big overstament with a small element of truth.
> 
>>I understand that commerical vendors like vendor-lock-in, and
>>therefore have an incentive to be different.
> 
> That's rubbish, except that vendors who provide facilities that
> are not provided by other vendows may have an advantage. For MPE,
> it's functionality that counts. In general, the vendors only write
> Forth kernels when they absolutely have to. For MPE, kernel
> changes have been driven by standards and technology changes.
> The basic VFX chassis is now 15 years old.

It's not about things like that.  Look e.g. at the C interface.  SwiftForth, 
VFX, and Gforth all have somewhat different interfaces.  Some differences 
are there for a reason, many are just there, because each of us just wrote a 
C interface without looking at the others.  Or at some bigger picture.  But 
we started to agree that we need to agree on something common.

The ego solution is what you did: Release your system for adaption.  The 
ego-less solution would be to adopt another system.  You now are expecting 
the others to have less ego and adapt your system.  Well, I can only speak 
for the Gforth team: We tried the ego solution before, and released our 
system open source from day one.  Nobody else even looked at it.  It's not 
working that way.

>>Because I think that
>>portability for applications is worth the effort to smooth down all the
>>difference of these operating systems.
> 
> But are you prepared to dampen your guru code habits to help achieve
> this desirable goal. Note that I don't want you not to write guru
> code, I want you
> 1) to put "here there be dragons" comments in the source code,

That's always a good idea.

> 2) to admit that Forth systems are different for good reasons,

Maybe.  I'm in a year-long argument with Anton over converting Gforth to a 
unitoken system with comp: like VFX.  I'm in favor of the VFX solution, but 
actually, the VFX solution requires to nail down (or rephrase) some parts of 
the semantics definitions in the standard.

For me, this helps.  I can now write guru code with special compilation 
semantics that is unproblematic and works out of the box on both Gforth and 
VFX.

> 3) to help the implementers to help you.

I'm not sure if this approach will really help.  I've used the "turn off the 
inliner" function quite a lot in MINOS, and each time you improved the 
inliner, I then again had to drop parts of the "disable inliner", because 
now those programs worked even when the inliner was enabled.  I want to help 
you to make your inliner work in all cases, and "disable inliner" is never 
needed.

This is of course not all going to happen at once, it's going to happen step 
by step.  The "disable inliner" is a workaround.  If we want to have a 
standard "disable inliner", should it have a reason class?  Something like 
that?

: stop-it ( -- )  key? IF key #esc = IF rdrop THEN THEN ;
don't-inline: rdrop+exit \ exit outer function

: >call ( addr -- ) >r ;
don't-inline: >r+exit \ call remainder of outer function

: list> ( addr -- addr' )
  BEGIN  @ dup  WHILE  r@ >call  REPEAT drop rdrop ;
don't-inline: >call \ call remainder of outer function
don't-inline: rdrop+exit \ exit outer function

If your inliner understands what's happening in these words, it can inline 
them.  If it can't, it should not inline.  If there isn't an inliner, don't-
inline: should just eat the next word.  Or the line?  You can have as many 
don't-inline: statements as you need to describe the dragons in your 
program.

It probably would be fun to write a Leo-Brodie like explanation of all this 
guru code, with a special dragon for each one of these return stack tricks 
;-).  The first one is the fat exit dragon.  The second one is the 
trampoline jump dragon, who bounces back.  And the third one is a crossbreed 
of both.

> It's a two-way street. Having done a huge amount of porting work
> over the years, I speak from some experience.

It's easier to come together if each one goes half the way, and meet in the 
middle.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 07:10 -0700
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-15 17:06 +0000
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 11:27 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:06 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-15 13:43 -0700
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-15 12:17 -1000
        Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 13:25 -0700
          Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 00:18 +0200
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-17 02:13 +0100
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-16 15:29 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 02:03 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 15:23 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 04:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 18:20 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 13:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 21:45 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 12:13 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:42 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 17:04 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 17:54 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 13:30 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:33 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:03 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 14:56 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 21:55 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 14:16 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 02:09 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 20:35 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 09:52 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 18:56 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 13:18 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:37 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:33 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:30 -0400
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-18 11:28 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-18 15:39 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 13:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 06:58 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:05 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 05:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 19:24 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:42 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:54 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 17:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 12:51 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:25 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-21 16:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-21 18:07 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 14:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:07 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 18:31 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-03-22 00:48 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 01:49 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:30 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 03:57 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-22 03:39 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 09:03 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 12:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-23 14:19 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-23 13:01 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 08:13 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 14:44 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:34 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 15:39 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:38 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 20:54 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 12:27 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-22 17:38 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 13:48 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-23 11:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-24 01:46 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:04 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-25 10:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 16:05 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 12:32 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:28 +0000
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 12:40 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 17:23 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-18 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 11:02 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-19 03:25 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-18 19:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:17 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 03:29 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:06 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-19 00:11 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 16:16 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 15:06 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:27 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 03:49 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 11:09 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 10:25 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:08 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 13:04 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 20:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:39 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-20 19:22 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 17:35 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-31 08:51 -0500
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-20 10:27 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 12:03 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 18:47 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 16:40 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-01 02:12 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-01 16:58 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-02 04:20 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-01 16:39 -1000
            Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-16 22:27 -0700
              Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 10:10 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 18:15 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 13:00 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-17 23:34 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Eduardo Costa <edu500ac@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 16:44 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-17 23:53 +0000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-18 23:32 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 08:12 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 00:33 -0700
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-03-19 09:39 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:11 +0200
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 10:30 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-03-19 22:31 +0100
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 12:09 -1000
                Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 19:23 +0100
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-16 06:34 +0000
  Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful junnia@gmail.com - 2013-03-19 07:45 -0700
    Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 21:38 +0200
      Re: Difficulty with Brad Rodriguez' screenful mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-23 01:31 +0200

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