Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent
Date	2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<juc7dq$6ul$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <4ffd1b71.2438638@192.168.0.50> <jtng06$p0l$1@online.de> <4fffcf0d.105232408@192.168.0.50> <jtputo$ftm$1@online.de> <500975fa$0$295$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>

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Doug Hoffman wrote:

> Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> Because you said that.  You probably didn't realize it :-).  You
>> said,
>> your favorite is FSM, and we should stick to what it offers.  Maybe
>> calling it "worst" is not really correct, it is one of the many
>> pretty limited OOF packages for Forth out there.
> 
> What do you mean by "pretty limited"?

Which means that you don't even understand how much it is limited :-).

By looking at what we have so far as object oriented extensions, one 
thing became pretty obvious to me: They don't intersect that well.  They 
all cover some aspects of OOP, and forget some others.

Recommended reading is "Design Patterns" from the Gang of Four.  If your 
OOP can do all these things, it can be considered sort-of complete.  A 
few further design patterns have emerged since that book has been 
written.

>> Which are all not only
>> syntactically incompatible, but also explore a different part of the
>> OOP universe.
> 
> What are these different parts?

This is the main problem I'm facing in this discussion: People know only 
their little world, and don't even understand that Java OOP, C++ OOP, 
and Smalltalk OOP are three quite different things.  With some overlap.  
And then we have JavaScript/lua/Python OOPs, which are more prototype-
based and explore something else.

On the Forth side, we have discrepancies like

implicit current object / explicit this pointer / object pointer on 
stack

object method / method object

global scoping / per-class scoping of selectors

vt / hash table / wordlist

early binding default / late binding default

various styles of instance variables (Forth-like variables vs. object-
like ones as in Neon)

first class object pointers [+ multi-message passing] / cumersome object 
pointers / no object pointers at all

selectors as xts / not usefully tickable

dot-parsers / parsing words / non-parsing words

single inheritance / interfaces / multiple inheritance

and more.

>> FMS is Doug's OOP package, it's coded for his
>> programming style.
> 
> You give me far too much credit.  FMS is essentially the long
> proven/used Neon-like model (whatever programming style that is) with
> the notable exceptions of object-message ordering, faster late
> binding, and multiple inheritance capability.

Yes, and Neon makes me shudder.  This was all completely wrong.  You 
argue that it was proven, but I've looked at it back when it was "hot" 
and it was hate at the first sight.  Now FMS fixes one of the worst 
offenders (message-object ordering).

This is why the Common Lispers came up with their meta object protocol, 
because they couldn't find a consense, either.  OOP is something even 
worse than Forth: It's not just a family of concepts under the same 
name, and this family has less in common than Forths have.

The concept of a meta object protocol is to use OOP design principles to 
allow these different styles to coexist and build on common (but 
flexible) foundations.  This is not about "I'm right and you are wrong", 
but it accepts that there are fundamental differences between different 
OOP packages.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-09 08:36 -0700
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-09 13:16 -0500
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 07:20 +0000
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 04:19 -0500
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 10:19 +0000
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:18 -0500
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 15:38 +0000
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 12:06 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 08:21 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 16:17 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 11:58 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 13:32 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 10:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:44 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 12:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 14:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 15:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 14:15 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:58 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:40 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 09:09 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 08:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:30 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:15 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:39 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:47 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:19 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 12:41 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 16:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 03:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-19 20:00 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-20 04:09 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 12:27 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:55 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:16 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:52 -0500
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-11 02:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-11 06:39 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:39 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:20 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-11 20:24 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 01:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:29 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 08:27 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:45 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 11:11 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 01:33 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 09:43 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 16:08 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 03:12 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:36 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 08:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:38 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 11:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:37 -0500
                partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:41 +0000
                Re: partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
                C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 12:55 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:45 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:34 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:24 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:18 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 11:33 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 12:05 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:08 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:14 +0200
                time_t Re: C interface Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-20 01:15 +0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 16:04 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:20 -0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 08:12 -1000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:32 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:22 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:37 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-21 15:22 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 14:35 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:24 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:03 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:10 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:15 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 16:27 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 19:49 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 15:42 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:02 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:31 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl - 2012-07-21 01:18 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:59 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 14:43 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 21:41 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 14:13 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-22 09:11 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-23 20:05 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 12:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-27 16:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-28 08:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-29 01:07 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 07:47 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-30 00:50 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-24 13:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:58 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:22 +0200
                objects (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:49 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:30 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:48 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:40 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:57 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:20 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:21 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 19:48 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 14:04 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-11 09:04 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 02:59 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 22:58 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 22:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:44 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:26 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 11:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-17 12:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:14 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 20:13 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 13:09 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 11:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 20:34 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:31 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 13:07 -0700
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 07:24 -0700
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-10 08:06 -0700
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:20 -0500
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 15:26 -0700
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 21:10 -0700

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