Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent
Date	2012-07-13 15:23 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2012Jul13.172322@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <UaCdnbmdmolUAGDSnZ2dnUVZ8lGdnZ2d@supernews.com> <2012Jul11.184450@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <AZidnWTWO5grIGDSnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@supernews.com> <2012Jul12.162312@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <27idnSK8np9ulmLSnZ2dnUVZ8qmdnZ2d@supernews.com>

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Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>The one that says that a standard Forth system may not be present and
>>>if you need one it's time to RTFM.
>> 
>> I did not sign such a contract, but I can agree with the notion that a
>> system that does not run a standard program without fiddling is not a
>> standard system.
>> 
>> And yes, for a non-standard system some fiddling is to be expected
>> when I want to run a standard program, and that may include reading
>> the manual.  But when a system is claimed to be standard, I expect
>> better of it.
>
>Claimed by who, though?  Is the vendor claims that by default you have
>a standard system, you have a right to expect one.  If they only claim
>that their Forth supports the standard, you have to find out how to
>start it in standard mode.  But you're only going to know which if you
>RTFM.  Just like GCC, and probably every other C compiler: I don't
>know that any of them are strictly conforming by default.

I am not asking for that kind of strict conformance.  The issues are
things like the absence of floating-point words (can you tell me a
standard C compiler that does not understand "double" by default?).
For a more complete list see the files in the directory setup in
<http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/appbench.zip>.

>Yes, it is.

So what?

>>>> Could you explain your logical reasoning that leads you to believe
>>>> that F+ is not a standard word, yet FLOATING is a standard query
>>>> (i.e., that Forth systems without the float wordset must not answer
>>>> with "true")?
>>>
>>>I think I already explained why I don't believe that F+ is necessarily
>>>a standard word in a system without the FLOATING wordset, so let's
>>>talk about ENVIRONMENT?  The standard says
>>>
>>>  The combination of 6.1.1345 ENVIRONMENT?, 11.6.1.2165 S",
>>>  15.6.2.2532 [IF], 15.6.2.2531 [ELSE], and 15.6.2.2533 [THEN]
>>>  constitutes an effective suite of words for conditional compilation
>>>  that works in interpretation state.
>>>
>>>and logically this would not be possible if ENVIRONMENT? returned true
>>>for wordsets that were not loaded.
>> 
>> First, it would certainly be possible.  I actually don't see any
>> connection between that statement and wordset queries.
>
>Excuse me?  The subject of that statement is obviously wordset
>queries.

That's not at all obvious, and I don't think it's the case.  The
subject is "an effective suite of words for conditional compilation
that works in interpretation state".  There are lots of things that
one can do with these words that have nothing to do with wordsets,
e.g.:

s" RETURN-STACK-CELLS" environment? 0= [if] 0 [then]
50 < [if]
... \ define extra stack
: save-stuff ... ;    \ push it on extra stack
: restore-stuff ... ; \ pull it from extra stack
[else]
: save-stuff ... postpone >r ;    immediate \ push it on the return stack
: restore-stuff postpone r> ... ; immediate \ pull it from the return stack
[then]

>> Second, that's a descriptive claim in an informative section of the
>> standard (A.6.1.1345, and you conveniently did not mention the
>> section number from which you cited), so it has no normative
>> content.
>
>That's a fair point.  However, IMO this language is sufficient clearly
>to indicate the intent of the TC.

Obviously not, since you came to a completely different interpretation
than I did.

>> Third, if for this or some other reason the "FLOATING" environmental
>> query, which is defined in section 12 of the standard ("The optional
>> Floating-Point word set") has to be taken into account for systems
>> not implementing this wordset, the same reasoning applies to the
>> rest of section 12, including "12.6.1.1420 F+".
>
>That's just restating your opinion, surely.  There's nothing in the
>paragraph above that can reasonably be taken to imply that all words
>in all wordsets must only be present if they have the definition in
>those wordsets.

Not there, no.  But there's also nothing in the paragraph above that
implies that the environmental queries from all wordsets must only be
present if they have the definition in those wordsets.

I think that both come from the following sentence in "3. Usage
requirements":

|No standard word provided by a system shall alter the system state in
|a way that changes the effect of execution of any other standard word
|except as provided in this Standard.

>>>There is no guarantee, but there is a lot of tradition based on
>>>UNIX.  Let's try something really simple that is undoubtedly
>>>Standard C:
>>>
>>>#include <stdio.h>
>>>#include <math.h>
>>>#include <stdlib.h>
>>>
>>>double two = 2.0;
>>>
>>>int main(int argc, char **argv) {
>>>  printf("%g\n", sqrt(two));
>>>  exit(0);
>>>}
>>>
>>> $ cc t.c
>>>/tmp/cc644TlH.o: In function `main':
>>>t.c:(.text+0x2c): undefined reference to `sqrt'
>>>
>>>What do you do now?  The C standard is of no help; your only recourse
>>>is to RTFM.
>> 
>> Not at all.  It's much faster to google for the error message,
>
>That's a distinction without a difference.

There's a big difference.  I googled for that in about 30s, whereas
finding the arcane incantation to get VFX or bigForth to include
floating-point took at least one order of magnitude longer.

>Googling for an error
>message is effectively having to RTFM, as is asking someone.  You're
>accessing external documentation in order to find out how to get this
>system to run a standard program.  This is no different from Forth!

Let's see:


 VFX Forth for Linux IA32
 © MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd, 1998-2009 

 Version: 4.40 [build 0404]
 Build date: 7 December 2009

 Free dictionary = 7922527 bytes [7736kb]


1 floats 
Err# -13 ERR: Undefined word.
 -> 1 floats
           ^
bye [c8:~:31676] bigforth

                       ANS bigFORTH 386-Linux rev. 2.3.1

1 floats  don't know  floats


I googled for both error messages, and did not get a solution for the
problem.

>> There is no "-lm" for Forth that gives me the floating-point wordset
>> everywhere
>
>There isn't for portable C either: it's a bizarre UNIXism.

Well, at least it's portable between all Unix C compilers.  That's
much more than can be said about Unix Forth systems.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

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RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-04 23:21 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-07-04 23:51 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-04 16:53 -0700
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 11:17 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-05 15:21 +0200
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 16:09 +0000
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-05 10:41 -0700
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-06 01:13 +0200
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-05 21:06 -0700
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-06 14:44 +0000
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 00:31 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-07 08:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 19:03 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 14:54 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-07 22:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-08 01:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-07 20:01 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 17:08 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-09 11:48 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:54 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-09 11:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-09 16:32 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 14:02 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 15:41 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-11 03:28 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:15 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 22:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 14:11 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 11:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 14:00 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 14:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 11:55 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-11 03:26 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:29 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-12 05:17 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 15:17 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 03:31 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-12 21:41 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 04:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 04:21 -0500
                OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 07:46 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-13 04:53 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 08:16 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:27 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 07:51 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-14 03:25 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 13:25 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-15 07:09 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 12:04 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-16 06:41 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 07:06 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 16:33 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 10:38 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 15:29 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-15 07:59 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-15 08:24 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 12:04 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-16 07:20 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 07:46 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 04:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 07:45 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:57 -0700
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-07 10:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 19:07 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:11 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-08 02:15 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-09 08:36 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-09 13:16 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 07:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 04:19 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 10:19 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 15:38 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 12:06 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 08:21 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 16:17 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 11:58 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 13:32 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 10:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:44 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 12:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 14:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 15:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 14:15 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:58 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:40 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 09:09 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 08:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:30 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:15 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:39 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:47 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:19 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 12:41 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 16:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 03:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-19 20:00 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-20 04:09 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 12:27 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:55 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:16 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-11 02:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-11 06:39 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:39 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:20 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-11 20:24 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 01:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:29 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 08:27 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:45 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 11:11 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 01:33 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 09:43 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 16:08 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 03:12 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:36 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 08:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:38 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 11:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:37 -0500
                partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:41 +0000
                Re: partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
                C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 12:55 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:45 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:34 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:24 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:18 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 11:33 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 12:05 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:08 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:14 +0200
                time_t Re: C interface Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-20 01:15 +0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 16:04 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:20 -0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 08:12 -1000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:32 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:22 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:37 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-21 15:22 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 14:35 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:24 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:03 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:10 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:15 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 16:27 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 19:49 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 15:42 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:02 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:31 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl - 2012-07-21 01:18 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:59 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 14:43 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 21:41 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 14:13 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-22 09:11 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-23 20:05 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 12:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-24 13:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:58 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:22 +0200
                objects (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:49 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:30 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:48 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:57 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:20 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:21 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 19:48 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 14:04 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-11 09:04 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 02:59 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 22:58 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 22:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:44 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:26 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 11:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-17 12:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:14 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 20:13 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 13:09 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 11:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 20:34 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:31 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 13:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 07:24 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-10 08:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:20 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 15:26 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 21:10 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 14:24 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-10 01:27 +0000
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-07 11:34 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-05 23:37 +0000
  WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-10 15:11 +0000
    Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 17:59 -0700
      Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:45 +0200
        Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 21:44 -0700
        Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 21:25 -0700

csiph-web