Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent
Date	2012-07-25 23:21 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<jupo05$ll7$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <5009bf34$0$293$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <juclkn$lr$1@online.de> <2012Jul23.173411@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <juk3q4$vg1$1@online.de> <2012Jul25.145214@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

Show all headers | View raw

Anton Ertl wrote:
> I may be misremembering, but IIRC BerndOOP uses STATE-smart parsing
> words to resolve overloading.

Yes, because that's the portable way to do it.  We have no other 
portable way to do this sort of things.  There are some people here who 
don't like STATE-smartness...

> Separating instance variable name spaces is relatively easy, because
> instance variables are normally only accessed from methods of the
> class.

No, you just make this mandatory.  It's just another practice where "we 
have no way to do this correctly" gets confused with "this is evil".  
Somehow, when you have APIs with C structures, accessing a "instance 
variable" (a structure element) is not a problem at all.

> By contrast, any selector can be called anywhere, so if two have the
> same name, how do you know which one you call?

By letting the object/class sort this thing out.

>>> But if I wanted to have the same name for both, I would use just one
>>> selector that can invoke methods of any class; sure it's a little
>>> slower, but it's much simpler than overloading.
>>
>>Can we have a metric for "much simpler", please?
> 
> Lines of code.  Adding an overloading resolution mechanism to
> objects.fs would require many more lines of code (if it can be done at
> all) than adding Smalltalk-style selectors.

Well, doing overloading resolution in BerndOOF is a few lines of code.  
It's just setting up the context, invoking the interpreter for a single 
word, and then restoring the context.  It's state-smart parsing, because 
that's how I can do this in a standard way.  It's not a nice and clean 
way, because we don't have any.

I think I'll redo this soon with the recognizers we have now.  It should 
be even simpler, because with recognizers, I can do this all without any 
state-smartness involved.

>>Should not.  I haven't tried, Stephen complained.
> 
> About what did he complain?

About too many OOP systems stepping on each other's toe.  He wasn't that 
precise what hurt most.  Maybe it's just that BerndOOF will show bugs in 
his code generators too often, and then he has to fix them ;-).

>>Yes, but the whole point about OOP design is that you don't need to
>>know such details.
> 
> I don't know about "OOP design", but I would say that the point of OOP
> is polymorphism.

Anton, the book you should read is in your library.  It's the pattern 
book, yes.  Polymorphism is the way to implement OOP design, it's a 
mean, not an end.  Polymorphism hides implementatin details, it allows 
you to separate interface from implementation.

> Anyway, you have some syntax that you use to explicitly set the
> current object, and I would use that for calling FOO from something
> that's not BerndOOF.  How do you do that?  Does the current object
> fall from heaven and is it never changed?

No, named objects, object pointers and explicit class scope settings 
(for objects passed around on the stack) know how to deal with that.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:36 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 08:16 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:38 -0500
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 11:36 +0000
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:37 -0500
        partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:41 +0000
          Re: partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:31 +0200
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
      C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 12:55 +0000
        Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:45 +0200
          Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:34 +0000
            Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:24 +0000
              Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:18 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 11:33 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 12:05 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:08 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:14 +0200
                time_t Re: C interface Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-20 01:15 +0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 16:04 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:20 -0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 08:12 -1000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:32 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:22 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:37 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-21 15:22 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 14:35 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:24 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:03 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:10 +0000
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:15 -0400
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 16:27 -0400
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 19:49 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 15:42 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:02 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:31 -0400
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl - 2012-07-21 01:18 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:59 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 14:43 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 21:41 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 14:13 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-22 09:11 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-23 20:05 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 12:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-27 16:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-28 08:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-29 01:07 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 07:47 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-30 00:50 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-24 13:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:58 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:22 +0200
                objects (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:49 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:30 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:48 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:40 -0400
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:57 +0000
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:20 -0400
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:21 -0400
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 19:48 +0200

csiph-web