Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent
Date	2012-07-25 12:52 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2012Jul25.145214@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <juc7dq$6ul$1@online.de> <5009bf34$0$293$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <juclkn$lr$1@online.de> <2012Jul23.173411@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <juk3q4$vg1$1@online.de>

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>Anton Ertl wrote:
>> An example for names that I remember you giving is DRAW.  You wanted
>> to use that name for two different selectors: for graphical objects
>> and for guns.  My solution to that is to have two different names for
>> the two selectors (say, DRAW-GRAPHIC and DRAW-GUN), yours is to use
>> DRAW for both and have a complex overloading resolution implementation
>> to distinguish between the two.
>
>No, I just reuse the mechanism that's already there to separate the 
>instance variable name spaces.

I may be misremembering, but IIRC BerndOOP uses STATE-smart parsing
words to resolve overloading.

Separating instance variable name spaces is relatively easy, because
instance variables are normally only accessed from methods of the
class.

By contrast, any selector can be called anywhere, so if two have the
same name, how do you know which one you call?

>> But if I wanted to have the same name for both, I would use just one
>> selector that can invoke methods of any class; sure it's a little
>> slower, but it's much simpler than overloading.
>
>Can we have a metric for "much simpler", please?

Lines of code.  Adding an overloading resolution mechanism to
objects.fs would require many more lines of code (if it can be done at
all) than adding Smalltalk-style selectors.

>You use hyphens to "separate" your scopes

I don't need separate scopes, because I no conflicting names.  We use
the same approach (without hyphens) in classical Forth: < U< D< F<.

>> Apart from name conflicts (and there are solutions for that), I don't
>> see a problem with loading multiple OOP systems written in standard
>> Forth at once.
>
>Should not.  I haven't tried, Stephen complained.

About what did he complain?

>>>E.g. if you decide to have your methods take an object on the stack,
>>>and I decide to have my methods to use the current object pointer, and
>>>I call one of your methods, it will (because it is called in my
>>>context)
>>>use the current object pointer.  Well, by pushing it to the stack, of
>>>course (so it's not an expensive operation and it is done at compile-
>>>time).
>> 
>> You want the system to resolve that automatically?  Why?  If the stack
>> effect of his word is ( n object -- r ), why would you call it without
>> explicitly putting the object on the stack?
>>
>> Conversely, if I call one of your words (say, FOO) that expect the
>> object in the current object, I would certainly call it with >O FOO O>
>> or somesuch.
>
>Yes, but the whole point about OOP design is that you don't need to know 
>such details.

I don't know about "OOP design", but I would say that the point of OOP
is polymorphism.

Anyway, you have some syntax that you use to explicitly set the
current object, and I would use that for calling FOO from something
that's not BerndOOF.  How do you do that?  Does the current object
fall from heaven and is it never changed?

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

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Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:36 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 08:16 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:38 -0500
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 11:36 +0000
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:37 -0500
        partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:41 +0000
          Re: partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:31 +0200
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
      C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 12:55 +0000
        Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:45 +0200
          Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:34 +0000
            Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:24 +0000
              Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:18 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 11:33 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 12:05 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:08 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:14 +0200
                time_t Re: C interface Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-20 01:15 +0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 16:04 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:20 -0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 08:12 -1000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:32 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:22 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:37 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-21 15:22 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 14:35 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:24 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:03 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:10 +0000
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:15 -0400
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 16:27 -0400
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 19:49 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 15:42 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:02 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:31 -0400
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl - 2012-07-21 01:18 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:59 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 14:43 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 21:41 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 14:13 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-22 09:11 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-23 20:05 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 12:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-27 16:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-28 08:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-29 01:07 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 07:47 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-30 00:50 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-24 13:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:58 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:22 +0200
                objects (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:49 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:30 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:48 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:40 -0400
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:57 +0000
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:20 -0400
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:21 -0400
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 19:48 +0200

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