Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent
Date	2012-07-26 14:16 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2012Jul26.161626@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <juclkn$lr$1@online.de> <2012Jul23.173411@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <juk3q4$vg1$1@online.de> <2012Jul25.145214@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <jupo05$ll7$1@online.de>

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>Anton Ertl wrote:
>> I may be misremembering, but IIRC BerndOOP uses STATE-smart parsing
>> words to resolve overloading.
>
>Yes, because that's the portable way to do it.

And IIRC funny things when you tick or POSTPONE some of the involved
words.  Not at all what I consider simple.

>> Separating instance variable name spaces is relatively easy, because
>> instance variables are normally only accessed from methods of the
>> class.
>
>No, you just make this mandatory.  It's just another practice where "we 
>have no way to do this correctly" gets confused with "this is evil".  

Where does "evil" come in here?

>Somehow, when you have APIs with C structures, accessing a "instance 
>variable" (a structure element) is not a problem at all.

C struct field names (and their name space rules) are a huge problem.
That's why Gforth's C interface does not deal with structs yet.

>>>Should not.  I haven't tried, Stephen complained.
>> 
>> About what did he complain?
>
>About too many OOP systems stepping on each other's toe.  He wasn't that 
>precise what hurt most.

Well, if he was not specific, there is no point in worrying about it.
We could waste years on better OO Forths and might still miss what his
complaint was really about.

>>>Yes, but the whole point about OOP design is that you don't need to
>>>know such details.
>> 
>> I don't know about "OOP design", but I would say that the point of OOP
>> is polymorphism.
>
>Anton, the book you should read is in your library.  It's the pattern 
>book, yes.  Polymorphism is the way to implement OOP design, it's a 
>mean, not an end.  Polymorphism hides implementatin details, it allows 
>you to separate interface from implementation.

There is object-oriented programming (OOP), and object-oriented design
(OOD); the latter is something that software engineers talk about.  I
never read about OOP design before, but yes, in OOD you don't need to
know the actual syntax of calling a method; in OOP you do.  You
started out a discussion of syntax, then turned around and said that
"the whole point about OOP design is that you don't need to know such
details."  Maybe it is, but why do you mention it in a discussion
about syntax?

Concerning the Design Patterns book, I tried, but it always put me to
sleep.

>> Anyway, you have some syntax that you use to explicitly set the
>> current object, and I would use that for calling FOO from something
>> that's not BerndOOF.  How do you do that?  Does the current object
>> fall from heaven and is it never changed?
>
>No, named objects, object pointers and explicit class scope settings 
>(for objects passed around on the stack) know how to deal with that.

Example?

I have a BerndObject on the stack (not in the current object) and want
to call a BerndSelector.  How do I do that?

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

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Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 08:16 +0000
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:38 -0500
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 11:36 +0000
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:37 -0500
      partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:41 +0000
        Re: partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:31 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
    C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 12:55 +0000
      Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:45 +0200
        Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:34 +0000
          Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:24 +0000
            Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:18 +0200
              Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 11:33 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 12:05 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:08 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:14 +0200
                time_t Re: C interface Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-20 01:15 +0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 16:04 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:20 -0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 08:12 -1000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:32 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:22 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:37 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-21 15:22 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 14:35 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:24 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:03 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:10 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:15 -0400
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 16:27 -0400
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 19:49 -0400
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 15:42 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:02 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:31 -0400
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl - 2012-07-21 01:18 -0700
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:59 +0000
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 14:43 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 21:41 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 14:13 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-22 09:11 +0200
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:34 +0000
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-23 20:05 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 12:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-27 16:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-28 08:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-29 01:07 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 07:47 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-30 00:50 +0200
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:10 -0400
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-24 13:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:58 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:22 +0200
                objects (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:49 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:30 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:48 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 04:40 -0400
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:57 +0000
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:20 -0400
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:21 -0400
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 19:48 +0200

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