Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent
Date	2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<jtputo$ftm$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <2012Jul10.173803@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <jtihu3$c09$1@online.de> <4ffd1b71.2438638@192.168.0.50> <jtng06$p0l$1@online.de> <4fffcf0d.105232408@192.168.0.50>

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Stephen Pelc wrote:

> Bernd said:
> 
>>I've ported MINOS to see how much of a job that is.  It's too much. 
>>We are not yet there, the guts are not adequately standardized as is.
>>Porting MINOS required to considerably change VFX Forth to get all the
>>necessary features
> 
> If you want to make specific attacks in public, then you will have
> to expect comments about your code. I don't want to do that. You
> know full well that MPE has found bugs in your code.

Of course the porting did both improve the quality of VFX *and* MINOS, 
which is a good thing.  And we got further towards more portability.  
It's just saying "we are there" still feels wrong.  The story is: There 
was a lot to do, because we still lack a lot of things we need for a 
project like MINOS.  This is not that much code (10k core MINOS LoCs 
without C bindings), but it is not trivial code.

> One important result from the MINOS port is that there is no standard
> way to tell the compiler about partitioning words other than with
> DOES>. This lack makes some Forth code hard to port.

Indeed.

> I and MPE are trying to make Forth more portable - we see benefit
> in that. To that end, we have put the EXTERN: interface to shared
> libraries into essentially public domain.
>   http://soton.mpeforth.com/flag/extern
> EXTERN: has been adopted by iForth and I am told that others are
> planning to adopt it.

This is certainly one of the benefits that came out of the MINOS porting 
exercise.  From my point of view, it's simply way too big to adopt it.  
bigForth's C interface is 9 screens: it does the same job, it just 
doesn't look as pretty.

It's possible to make a wrapper around bigForth's C interface, so that 
it can read the same syntax.  That would be a way to adopt it.

However, for Gforth, we have a different problem.  EXTERN: uses the C 
type to both infer the C and the Forth type.  However, sometimes, we 
don't have a 1:1 relationship.  In the case of floating point, C has two 
types (float and double), while Forth has only one.  This is the easy 
case, because the C type is specified.

However, for types like offset_t or time_t, the situation is more 
complex.  The C type might be 32 or 64 bits, and the Forth system might 
be a 32 or 64 bit system.  In the 64 bits on a 32 bit system case, you 
want "d" as Forth type.  In all other cases "n" is good enough.

I think this problem can be solved by having a way to teach EXTERN: new 
types (or redefining types).  So you can tell it offset_t is int64_t in 
C and d in Forth.

Gforth's interface also needs to know which include files to load, but 
that can be easily solved by making \c a comment in all other 
implementations.

>>And I don't buy
>>into the "take the worst one, and stop using all the nice features you
>>actually need" approach.
> 
> Neither do I, so why did you say that?

Because you said that.  You probably didn't realize it :-).  You said, 
your favorite is FSM, and we should stick to what it offers.  Maybe 
calling it "worst" is not really correct, it is one of the many pretty 
limited OOF packages for Forth out there.  Which are all not only 
syntactically incompatible, but also explore a different part of the OOP 
universe.  I.e. they are also functionally incompatible.

> Part of the horror of OOP in
> Forth is that most of the package authors fight amongst themselves.
> The one person who collaborates and adapts is Doug Hoffman, whose
> FMS package has been widely ported and is also at FLAG.

My BerndOOF is available as pure ANS Forth implementation - being widely 
ported doesn't help.

>   http://soton.mpeforth.com/flag/fms
> If you want additional features, you can always negotiate with Doug.

No, I don't want additional features.  I use a Java-style OOP, Doug uses 
a Smalltalk-style OOP.  These are two different paradigms.  The point 
about a meta object protocol is to allow different paradigms coexist 
peacefully, not to add some features here and there.

It's not that easy.  FMS is Doug's OOP package, it's coded for his 
programming style.

> People who want their libraries to be ported and used are going to
> have to learn to collaborate.

Some people seme to imply that this means "stick to least common 
denominator".  This simply means that you can't do non-trivial things.  
This is not an option.

>>The VFX-specific part of MINOS is almost 5k lines.  The rest is less
>>than 10k lines.  As a porting endeavor, it's far from a complete
>>rewrite, but a substantial part of MINOS sources are system-specific.
>>This tells how much (or little) we have achieved.
> 
> By some changes, the majority of the 5k lines of supposedly
> VFX-specific code could be reduced by something like a factor
> of five.

Well, maybe.  For example, the harness part where I just make VFX's 
floating point format compatible with Forth-94 can go away if VFX would 
be out-of-the-box compatible with Forth-94; but that's only a very small 
part - this is just fiddling.  The C bindings could become the same if 
we use the same syntax.  This would significantly reduce the system 
LoCs.

The rest is adding features that Forth simply does not have, and which 
require carnal knowledge.  If you want to indicate that I shouldn't have 
done that (like introducing quotations): this is not the way to go.  
Quotations are an essential feature to make MINOS actually usable.

There are other things which became harness, like the floored division.

> The port tells me (and I have inspected the code) that MINOS was not
> designed to be portable.

No, of course not.  It was designed to explore new territory, and a 
number of solutions there are ad-hoc for that reason.  In order to write 
MINOS, I had to write an OOF with a paradigm that matches the design 
decisions in MINOS, I had to make my C interface capable enough to do 
what I wanted to (I had to do the same thing on my interface that you 
had to do on EXTERN:, add real floating point support), I had to add 
quotations and other stuff which are not part of Forth.

This is the point I'm trying to make here: We aren't done yet.

> The port process did not follow a
> procedure designed to make the next port easier. Writing code
> for porting is a discipline. Talk to Willem about this. He
> knows things that you do not know. A lot of what Willem taught
> me is expressed in my EuroForth paper:
>   
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/euroforth/ef09/papers/pelc.pdf

The core of your paper is the separation of harness and application.  
However, I agree with Anton that this approach actually shows that the 
standard is still way too weak.  The long-term approach to write 
portable libraries is to minimize the amount of carnal knowledge you 
need to do so.  It's not about "you can't use this or that approach, 
because that can't be implemented in standard Forth".  Forth is meant to 
be an extensible language, so if you can't do something without carnal 
knowledge, it's a bug.

> MPE has used and incorporated third party Forth source code for
> many years. We have experience with coding styles and attitudes
> that will and will not work for portable code.
> 
>>Once I can write the OpenGL-based MINOS 2 in standard Forth + standard
>>libraries, then we are done.
> 
> That's an objective worth working towards.
> 
> I hope that we can collaborate and negotiate our way towards
> achieving the objective.

Yes, I hope so, too.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-04 23:21 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-07-04 23:51 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-04 16:53 -0700
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 11:17 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-05 15:21 +0200
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 16:09 +0000
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-05 10:41 -0700
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-06 01:13 +0200
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-05 21:06 -0700
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-06 14:44 +0000
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 00:31 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-07 08:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 19:03 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 14:54 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-07 22:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-08 01:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-07 20:01 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 17:08 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-09 11:48 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:54 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-09 11:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-09 16:32 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 14:02 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 15:41 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-11 03:28 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:15 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 22:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 14:11 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 11:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 14:00 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 14:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 11:55 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-11 03:26 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:29 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-12 05:17 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 15:17 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 03:31 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-12 21:41 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 04:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 04:21 -0500
                OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 07:46 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-13 04:53 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 08:16 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:27 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 07:51 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-14 03:25 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 13:25 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-15 07:09 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 12:04 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-16 06:41 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 07:06 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 16:33 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 10:38 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 15:29 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-15 07:59 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-15 08:24 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 12:04 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-16 07:20 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 07:46 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 04:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 07:45 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:57 -0700
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-07 10:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 19:07 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:11 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-08 02:15 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-09 08:36 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-09 13:16 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 07:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 04:19 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 10:19 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 15:38 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 12:06 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 08:21 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 16:17 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 11:58 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 13:32 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 10:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:44 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 12:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 14:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 15:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 14:15 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:58 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:40 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 09:09 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 08:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:30 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:15 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:39 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:47 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:19 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 12:41 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 16:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 03:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-19 20:00 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-20 04:09 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 12:27 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:55 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:16 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-11 02:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-11 06:39 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:39 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:20 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-11 20:24 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 01:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:29 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 08:27 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:45 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 11:11 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 01:33 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 09:43 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 16:08 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 03:12 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:36 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 08:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:38 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 11:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:37 -0500
                partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:41 +0000
                Re: partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
                C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 12:55 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:45 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:34 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:24 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:18 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 11:33 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 12:05 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:08 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:14 +0200
                time_t Re: C interface Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-20 01:15 +0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 16:04 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:20 -0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 08:12 -1000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:32 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:22 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:37 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-21 15:22 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 14:35 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:24 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:03 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:10 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:15 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 16:27 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 19:49 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 15:42 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:02 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:31 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl - 2012-07-21 01:18 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:59 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 14:43 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 21:41 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 14:13 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-22 09:11 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-23 20:05 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 12:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-24 13:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-25 13:58 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-25 23:22 +0200
                objects (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-26 14:49 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:30 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-26 04:48 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-27 23:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:57 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:20 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:21 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 19:48 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 14:04 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-11 09:04 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 02:59 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 22:58 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 22:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:44 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:26 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 11:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-17 12:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:14 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 20:13 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 13:09 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 11:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 20:34 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:31 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 13:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 07:24 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-10 08:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:20 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 15:26 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 21:10 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 14:24 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-10 01:27 +0000
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-07 11:34 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-05 23:37 +0000
  WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-10 15:11 +0000
    Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 17:59 -0700
      Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:45 +0200
        Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 21:44 -0700
        Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 21:25 -0700

csiph-web