Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent

From	anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent
Date	2012-07-11 14:11 +0000
Organization	Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID	<2012Jul11.161159@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <4ff8baf5.381346940@192.168.0.50> <2012Jul9.173549@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <4ffb068e.5876542@192.168.0.50> <2012Jul10.160243@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <D5OdncVxHtlcRGHSnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@supernews.com>

Show all headers | View raw

"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>On 7/10/12 4:02 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>> What I want is to run a standard program on several (claiming-to-be)
>> standard systems without fiddling around.
>>
>> And I want to be able to write such programs, and as easily as
>> possible.  If I need to tell the system that my program uses a
>> standard wordset, that's not as easy as possible, but if there was a
>> standard way to do that, it would be better than the status quo.
>
>The obvious way to achieve this is to publish a standard model that 
>everyone has to follow. Some languages work this way. However, by 
>removing the required model of Forth83, we have opened the door to 
>faster, more powerful implementation techniques. Is this a bad thing, 
>even though some ambiguities exist as a result?

That's a red herring.  I did not ask for a standard model, I asked for
being able to run a standard program on a standard system without
fiddling around.  Since the standard does not require a particular
implementation model, that's possible (and not particularly difficult)
without a standard model.  The issues being discussed also have
nothing to do with a standard model, but with ensuring that certain
word(set)s are present.

>I ask you, those of you who work with many languages, how does it work 
>with them? Are there significant C programs, for example, that will 
>compile on any compiler and run correctly, without any "fiddling 
>around"?

Any compiler?  I don't know.  But for serious compilers, it works
pretty well, much, much, much, much better than in Forth.  Not just do
they compile the same source code unchanged, they are compatible at
the OS command line level (Forth systems are very different there),
and that's not covered in the standard.  Also directories for #include
works the same way for all serious compilers (also not standardized),
so you can organize your portable source code in directories, unlike
Forth.

The attitude is completely different.  Instead of considering source
code compatibility an outlandish idea like some Forth vendors do
(despite taking themselves seriously), it's a major goal, and the
source code in question is not restricted to the C code, but includes
the Makefiles as well (that's why the command line options have to be
compatible).

The C part of Gforth uses lots of GNU C extensions (i.e., it's not
standard C).  Compiling that with a different compiler is far beyond
what I am asking for Forth here, yet I tried using a number of
alternative C compilers instead of GCC over the years: The Intel C
compiler crashed (many years ago. maybe it has become better in the
meantime).  Tcc did not like some of the GNU C stuff, but that could
be worked around in about the amount of time it takes to get a
standard Forth program to run on a standard Forth system.  LLVM did
not like one particular usage of a GNU C extension, and that could be
fixed quickly.  Oh, and I certainly did not need to read a PDF manual
for any of this.

>>> At least VFX has a manual ... <grin>
>>
>> Wow!  So let's see:
>>
>> - System A has a manual and makes all standard words it supports
>>    available by default.
>>
>> - System B has a manual and makes some words only available through an
>>    ENVIRONMENT? query (and the manual describes that).
>>
>> - System C has a manual and makes some words only available through
>>    some system-specific INCLUDE (and the manual describes that).
>>
>> - System D makes some words only available through some
>>    system-specific INCLUDE or somesuch (and the manual is only in
>>    German).
>>
>> Since these are quality-of-implementation issues, it's up to the users
>> to evaluate these systems by quality (these are all systems running on
>> PCs).  As a bonus question, which feature would the vendor of system C
>> emphasize?
>
>Are you suggesting that an implementer shouldn't actually *expect* users 
>to read the Fine Manual? :-)

If a user has to read the manual of a standard system to run a
standard program, there's something wrong with the standard.

>Every system provider has a target market in mind, and chooses which 
>features to include automatically and which to make optional with that 
>target market in mind, not to mention what language to write the manual 
>in. Yes, these are all quality-of-implementation issues, but what 
>constitutes quality depends in the individual needs of the users. The 
>more you enforce conformity in these matters the more difficult it 
>becomes to provide an "ideal" product for particular target markets.

There are many ways in which a product can differentiate itself from
others, while still being able to run standard code without fiddling.
E.g., VFX produces fast code, while SwiftForth is pleasant to use.
And don't tell me that memory in a PC is so limited that VFX omits
floating-point for that reason.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-04 23:21 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-07-04 23:51 +0200
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-04 16:53 -0700
  Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 11:17 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-05 15:21 +0200
      Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-05 16:09 +0000
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-05 10:41 -0700
        Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-06 01:13 +0200
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-05 21:06 -0700
          Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-06 14:44 +0000
            Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 00:31 +0200
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-07 08:52 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 19:03 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 14:54 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-07 22:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-08 01:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-07 20:01 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 17:08 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-09 11:48 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:54 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-09 11:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-09 16:32 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 14:02 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 15:41 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-11 03:28 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:15 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 22:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 14:11 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 11:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 14:00 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 14:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 11:55 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-11 03:26 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:29 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-12 05:17 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 15:17 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 03:31 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-12 21:41 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 04:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 04:21 -0500
                OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 07:46 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-13 04:53 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 08:16 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:27 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 07:51 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-14 03:25 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 13:25 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-15 07:09 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 12:04 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-16 06:41 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 07:06 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 16:33 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 10:38 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 15:29 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-15 07:59 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-15 08:24 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 12:04 -0700
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-16 07:20 -0400
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-16 07:46 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS' EVALUATE, was [Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent] BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 04:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-07-13 07:45 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:57 -0700
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-07 10:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-07 19:07 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 15:11 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-08 02:15 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-09 08:36 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-09 13:16 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 07:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 04:19 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 10:19 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-10 15:38 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 12:06 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 08:21 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 16:17 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-10 11:58 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 13:32 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 10:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:44 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 12:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 14:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 15:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 14:15 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:58 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:40 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:18 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 09:09 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 12:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 08:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:30 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:15 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:39 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:47 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:19 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 12:41 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-16 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 16:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 03:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-19 20:00 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-20 04:09 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 12:27 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 15:55 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 12:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-13 12:16 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-14 03:52 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-11 02:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-11 06:39 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:21 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-11 02:39 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-11 04:20 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-11 20:24 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-12 01:53 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:29 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 08:27 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:45 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-13 11:11 -1000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 01:33 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-12 09:43 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-12 16:08 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-13 03:12 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:37 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 16:23 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:36 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 08:16 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:38 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-13 11:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 09:37 -0500
                partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:41 +0000
                Re: partitioning words (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 22:03 +0200
                C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 12:55 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:45 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-16 14:34 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-16 15:24 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-16 23:18 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 11:33 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-17 12:05 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:08 +0200
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-17 19:14 +0200
                time_t Re: C interface Aleksej Saushev <asau@inbox.ru> - 2012-07-20 01:15 +0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 16:04 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-07-20 12:20 -0400
                Re: time_t Re: C interface "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-07-20 08:12 -1000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:32 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:22 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-07-20 19:00 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:37 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-21 15:22 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-20 14:35 -0700
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:24 +0000
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:03 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: time_t Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-19 17:10 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:15 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 20:18 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 16:27 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 00:21 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 19:49 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 15:42 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:02 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:31 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl - 2012-07-21 01:18 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 11:59 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 14:43 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 19:36 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-21 21:41 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-22 14:13 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-07-22 09:11 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-23 15:34 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-23 20:05 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-21 10:57 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-23 21:20 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-07-20 11:21 -0400
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-20 19:48 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-11 14:04 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-07-11 09:04 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-12 02:59 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 22:58 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 22:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-13 05:44 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-15 03:26 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-16 11:13 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-17 04:02 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-17 12:35 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:14 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-13 20:13 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-14 13:09 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-14 20:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 11:02 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-13 02:20 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 20:34 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-13 16:31 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-15 13:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 07:24 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-10 08:06 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-07-10 10:20 -0500
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 15:26 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 21:10 -0700
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-07-09 14:24 +0000
                Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-07-10 01:27 +0000
              Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-07 11:34 +0000
    Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-05 23:37 +0000
  WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-10 15:11 +0000
    Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-10 17:59 -0700
      Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-07-12 23:45 +0200
        Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-12 21:44 -0700
        Re: WANT revisited Re: RfD: Make ENVIRONMENT? obsolescent BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-07-14 21:25 -0700

csiph-web