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Re: Rub Odd's nose in it.

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 8/8/2018 7:55 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
 > benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> wrote:
 >> On 8/7/2018 12:24 PM, Tom Roberts wrote:
 >>> On 8/7/18 3:53 AM, benj wrote:
 >>>> Are you talking mathematics or physics?
 >>>
 >>> Both -- the mathematical structure of current physical theories and 
models.
 >>>
 >>>> Do you agree that agree with Odd that empty space containing no
 >>>> charges and hence produces no forces on test charges is not devoid of
 >>>> fields but actually is filled with an electric (an other types) of
 >>>> fields whose value is simply zero?
 >>>
 >>> Yes. Because if you believe Maxwell's equations apply, or if you 
believe
 >>> that QED applies, then you are FORCED to conclude there is a
 >>> corresponding electromagnetic field everywhere, including regions in
 >>> which it is zero (which really never happens).
 >>>
 >>>      As I said before, this is INHERENT in what "field" means.
 >>>
 >>> Tom Roberts
 >>
 >> What you mean is that it is INHERENT in the definition what a vector
 >> field is, mathematically.
 >
 > Or a scalar field, or a tensor field, physically.

So clearly you want to talk about mathematical fantasy rather than physics!

 >>   (Note you must use the term vector field
 >> because otherwise the term can be confused with an algebraic field which
 >> is something else entirely, right?)
 >>
 >> A vector field starts with a region of some mathematical space and a
 >> vector quantity is assigned to each point (an infinite number of them)
 >> in that subspace.
 >
 > No, over the whole space. By definition.
WRONG! I just gave the proper definition for a vector field. This is 
obvious since I as a mathematician can define any limit to all space 
that I choose and define a field over it. Math is fantasy, after all.
 >> Therefore, by definition the vector field exists
 >> (assuming I have chosen to define one) even though all vectors at every
 >> point are zero. You and Odd win, right? Of course if I choose NOT to
 >> define a field in that space (reality is determined by my imagination,
 >> right?) then there is no field in that subspace only a coordinate
 >> system, unless I choose not to define one of those either, in which case
 >> there is no subspace existing at all and I win, right?
 >>
 >> Wrong. Mathematics is not more real than reality. In reality and in
 >> Maxwell theory in particular, the mathematics is only a model to
 >> describe what seems to be force field like phenomena produced by
 >> charges.
 >
 > You place too much primacy on forces as the anchor to reality. As has 
been
 > pointed out by physicists for a couple of centuries, the description of
 > dynamics in terms of forces and accelerations, or by momentum and energy
 > exchange, or by the principle of least action and a Lagrangian, or by a
 > Hamiltonian — these are all formally equivalent, with none of them being
 > more “real” than the others.
Nonsense argument. Electrical forces ARE the reality. All the different 
mathematical ways of describing those forces are simply mathematical 
models.
 >> People (Odd's textbooks) love to talk about "fields" as if they
 >> were real physical things. They are NOT.
 >
 > That’s your opinion and your bias and yours alone. They are not MY
 > textbooks, they are the textbooks of PHYSICISTS. And so if you say 
you are
 > a trained physicist while rejecting the statements made by physicists in
 > their training materials, one has to question the value of your training.
So in your opinion, statements made by physicists when printed in books 
can never be wrong nor questioned. So which one of these books is the 
bible you are thumping today. Get some old physics books and see if 
everything the physicists said in it is absolutely true and infallible.
You are making religious arguments here.
 >> Forces are real, models are
 >> fantasy.
 >
 > Bullshit. See above.

So you still cling to your guns and bible that mathematics is somehow 
reality or conversely that fantasy is actually reality. You and Ed and 
Starfaker need to have a "deep thoughts" party.

 >> Hence when charges are missing, there are no forces present in
 >> the subspace. People use the terminology that there are no "fields"
 >> there but as seen above that is mathematically wrong on several counts
 >> if someone has defined a null vector field there. And if a charge is
 >> suddenly placed in that subspace it is known that forces from it will
 >> NOT be measured immediately at a distance from it (unless we are talking
 >> ESP interactions) as the actions travel away from the source at 
velocity c.
 >
 > I’ll give you a simple example. Suppose you have a region where there 
is a
 > changing, nonzero value of electric field, and outside this region the
 > value of the field is zero, or as you would have it, no field AT ALL.
 > Maxwell’s equations will relate how the derivative with respect to time
 > will be related to the spatial gradient of the magnetic field. Since 
there
 > was no magnetic field there at all to begin with, what magnetic field is
 > Maxwell’s equation relating to??
IF there is a region where the forces are zero, then obviously there 
still could be a mathematical field defined there of value zero. 
Similarly, if you examine gradients you may find the gradients are all 
zero as well. Hence they clearly exist but have value zero! Your 
confusion is that you now make the leap of faith that these mathematical 
fantasies are REALITY! This is known utter nonsense. The reality of what 
exactly causes electrical forces is not completely known. There are two 
different things, Odd, mathematical models and the reality we are 
modeling. Any (properly) trained scientist knows this and it is assumed 
in any conversation even when not explicitly stated.


 > Likewise, let’s allow that there is a magnetic field somehow there now
 > which is changing, then this will specify a gradient of an electric 
field,
 > including in the region where you said there was nothing for there to 
be a
 > gradient of! So what is Maxwell’s equation referring to, since there 
IS NO
 > electricity field to specify a gradient for?
 > Notice carefully that Maxwell’s equations do not indicate the 
CREATION of a
 > field where there was none before. They simply relate the derivatives of
 > fields that must ALREADY BE DEFINED in that region of space.

Bravo Odd! You used the correct word "specify" rather than the incorrect 
one "causes". Look, if there is a changing current it creates magnetic 
and electric forces in the space about it. That is the reality. The 
mathematics is Maxwell's (Heaviside's) equations and the model they 
represent. So if I DEFINE a mathematical field about my current I can 
use the Maxwell EQUATIONS to CALCULATE and PREDICT what forces I might 
measure out there in that region of space. The field, the equations, the 
numbers are NOT the reality of the forces. The mathematics models the 
reality. Why do you find that so difficult to comprehend?

 >>
 >> I certainly can DEFINE my "field" to not be present until that force
 >> arrives. My model. My fantasy. Generally people do this. In fact it's
 >> worse than this because EM fields are NOT quite the mathematical ones.
 >> Because forces must be measured with a "test" charge. And means there
 >> are interactions on both charges. So how can one define a "force field"
 >> from just a single charge? As Jackson points out, one must use a
 >> calculus-like limit operation to obtain that for the field values. And
 >> Lo, that means that all those values that you are using are in truth
 >> total fantasy and not reality at all because of that calculation!
 >
 > I’ll give you another example that may help. Suppose you have a body in
 > stable equilibrium someplace. There are no forces acting on this body.
 > There are no accelerations. You can analyze this same situation with 
energy
 > considerations. Are you going to say that because there are no forces on
 > this body, then energy is just as meaningless as fields would be?
 > Physicists don’t say so. Potential energy may be at a local minimum 
there,
 > but energy is certainly defined and REAL.

Hey Potential energy is obviously a fantasy because I can make it any 
value I choose! So is that proof that reality only exists in my 
fantasies? Somehow, I don't think so. Energy is actually math, while the 
work the energy does is reality.

 >> So now it's little wonder that genius Odd (and you) have decided that in
 >> your lib fantasy worlds what only what you can imagine is the only thing
 >> that is real? Needless to say this is the polar opposite of real 
science.
 >
 > I’m so amused that you say all the physics textbooks get this wrong, and
 > are therefore the opposite of “real science”. What is this “real science”
 > you were trained on, and what materials did you use to become trained in
 > this “real science”?
I did not say "all". That is YOUR fantasy. And furthermore since all of 
what I"m saying is SUPPOSED to be understood below the surface, lots of 
times statements even properly formulated are misunderstood by amateurs 
like you (and by a few professionals as well) to leap to the erroneous 
conclusion that fantasy is all reality is about. If you understood the 
fundamentals of this science you would not jump to this erroneous 
conclusion.
 > Or is this “real science” something that you have invented on your own,
 > Ben?

Clearly YOUR real science is a figment of your imagination. Actual 
science, as you have often told others (kooks) here, is determined by 
measurements of reality. The two are NOT the the same and reality is 
certainly NOT determined by your fantasies no matter what you may have 
read in the Hitchhikers Guide or experienced while "doing" mushrooms.

 > These are straightforward questions that you could at least be honest in
 > answering.

I just did.

 >> Does this set you guys straight?  Yeah, I didn't really think it would.

Obviously this comment still applies.

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Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 02:13 -0400
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sd> - 2018-08-05 12:08 +0000
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 13:06 +0000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:10 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:33 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 18:07 +0000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:23 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 22:43 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:39 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:45 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 12:50 -0400
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 08:27 -0500
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 14:13 +0000
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:23 -0400
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 17:47 +0000
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:32 -0400
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hp> - 2018-08-06 18:05 +0000
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:15 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 09:21 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-08-07 08:36 -0400
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:17 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-05 13:20 -0700
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:39 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-06 19:22 -0500
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 18:41 -0500
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-05 22:50 -0500
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:51 -0400
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-06 13:08 -0500
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-07 11:40 +1000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 01:49 +0000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:53 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 10:02 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-07 08:55 -0500
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:05 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-07 11:24 -0500
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 16:56 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 20:04 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 09:05 +0200
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-08 17:14 +1000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 10:34 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:16 +0200
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 09:15 +1000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 19:57 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 11:48 +1000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 11:02 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-08 11:08 -0500
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 13:23 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:26 +0200
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-09 10:15 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:48 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-11 23:37 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:31 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:34 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-12 10:09 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-12 21:29 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Lovu Biftek <ufeli@fupuks.cl> - 2018-08-13 10:53 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 04:08 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 11:41 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 10:02 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 17:36 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 10:45 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-15 18:56 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 06:29 -0700
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 23:55 +0000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 10:58 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 15:26 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:36 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 17:53 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-09 11:21 -0700
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-08 11:12 +0000
  Rub Odd's nose in it. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2018-08-16 20:34 -0700

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