Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #467352

Re: Rub Odd's nose in it.

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>
Newsgroups	sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Rub Odd's nose in it.
Date	2018-08-09 09:15 +1000
Message-ID	<ft1bt1Fpgr4U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <pkbmlu$d5l$1@gioia.aioe.org> <7cudnSH91s0jWvTGnZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <pkdc26$15qf$1@gioia.aioe.org> <fsvjj0FcqkhU1@mid.individual.net> <pkev1m$1i19$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 9/08/2018 12:34 AM, benj wrote:
> On 8/8/2018 3:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 8/08/2018 10:04 AM, benj wrote:
>>> On 8/7/2018 12:24 PM, Tom Roberts wrote:
>>>> On 8/7/18 3:53 AM, benj wrote:
>>>>> Are you talking mathematics or physics?
>>>>
>>>> Both -- the mathematical structure of current physical theories and 
>>>> models.
>>>>
>>>>> Do you agree that agree with Odd that empty space containing no 
>>>>> charges and hence produces no forces on test charges is not devoid 
>>>>> of fields but actually is filled with an electric (an other types) 
>>>>> of fields whose value is simply zero?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Because if you believe Maxwell's equations apply, or if you 
>>>> believe that QED applies, then you are FORCED to conclude there is a 
>>>> corresponding electromagnetic field everywhere, including regions in 
>>>> which it is zero (which really never happens).
>>>>
>>>>      As I said before, this is INHERENT in what "field" means.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Roberts
>>>
>>> What you mean is that it is INHERENT in the definition what a vector 
>>> field is, mathematically. (Note you must use the term vector field 
>>> because otherwise the term can be confused with an algebraic field 
>>> which is something else entirely, right?)
>>>
>>> A vector field starts with a region of some mathematical space and a 
>>> vector quantity is assigned to each point (an infinite number of them)
>>> in that subspace. Therefore, by definition the vector field exists 
>>> (assuming I have chosen to define one) even though all vectors at 
>>> every point are zero. You and Odd win, right? Of course if I choose 
>>> NOT to define a field in that space (reality is determined by my 
>>> imagination, right?) then there is no field in that subspace only a 
>>> coordinate system, unless I choose not to define one of those either, 
>>> in which case there is no subspace existing at all and I win, right?
>>>
>>> Wrong. Mathematics is not more real than reality. In reality and in 
>>> Maxwell theory in particular, the mathematics is only a model to 
>>> describe what seems to be force field like phenomena produced by 
>>> charges. People (Odd's textbooks) love to talk about "fields" as if 
>>> they were real physical things. They are NOT. Forces are real, models 
>>> are fantasy. Hence when charges are missing, there are no forces 
>>> present in the subspace. People use the terminology that there are no 
>>> "fields" there but as seen above that is mathematically wrong on 
>>> several counts if someone has defined a null vector field there. And 
>>> if a charge is suddenly placed in that subspace it is known that 
>>> forces from it will NOT be measured immediately at a distance from it 
>>> (unless we are talking ESP interactions) as the actions travel away 
>>> from the source at velocity c.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Forces are as much models as fields are. Can you grab a force, and 
>> take one home?
>>
>> All we ever have are models. Reality, if it exists, is forever out of 
>> our reach. Even what we think we're perceiving through our senses is 
>> nothing but an extrapolation that the brain makes based on models.
>>
>> Sylvia.
> 
> Oh so you really have no training in science and are a liberal 
> journalist who believes that all reality exists ONLY in your imagination 
> and drug-soaked fantasies. Well, welcome to the crowd. That describes 
> nearly all of those here pretending to discuss science.
> 
> Forces can be MODELED but they are not models. Forces can move your 
> silly ass. Mathematics exists only in fantasy. While it is true we do 
> not have direct access to our optical and other sensor arrays and 
> therefore perceive the data as algorithmic output, that does not imply 
> that reality only exists as algorithmic fantasy. Although glasses 
> provide algorithmic transformation of the images coming to your eyes, 
> putting on your glasses does not mean that the world out there is now 
> total fantasy. Are you one of those "the moon does not exist until 
> somebody looks at it" idiots?
> 
> Mathematics is not more real than reality.
> 

If you're going to engage in straw man argument and abuse, I can't be 
bothered with you.

Sylvia.

Thread

Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 02:13 -0400
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sd> - 2018-08-05 12:08 +0000
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 13:06 +0000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:10 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:33 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 18:07 +0000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:23 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 22:43 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:39 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:45 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 12:50 -0400
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 08:27 -0500
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 14:13 +0000
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:23 -0400
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 17:47 +0000
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:32 -0400
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hp> - 2018-08-06 18:05 +0000
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:15 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 09:21 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-08-07 08:36 -0400
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:17 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-05 13:20 -0700
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:39 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-06 19:22 -0500
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 18:41 -0500
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-05 22:50 -0500
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:51 -0400
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-06 13:08 -0500
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-07 11:40 +1000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 01:49 +0000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:53 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 10:02 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-07 08:55 -0500
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:05 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-07 11:24 -0500
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 16:56 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 20:04 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 09:05 +0200
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-08 17:14 +1000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 10:34 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:16 +0200
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 09:15 +1000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 19:57 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 11:48 +1000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 11:02 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-08 11:08 -0500
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 13:23 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:26 +0200
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-09 10:15 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:48 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-11 23:37 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:31 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:34 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-12 10:09 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-12 21:29 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Lovu Biftek <ufeli@fupuks.cl> - 2018-08-13 10:53 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 04:08 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 11:41 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 10:02 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 17:36 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 10:45 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-15 18:56 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 06:29 -0700
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 23:55 +0000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 10:58 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 15:26 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:36 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 17:53 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-09 11:21 -0700
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-08 11:12 +0000
  Rub Odd's nose in it. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2018-08-16 20:34 -0700

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