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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #467354
| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity, sci.physics |
| Subject | Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. |
| Date | 2018-08-08 23:55 +0000 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <pkfvu0$19fl$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | <pk64iv$1hqt$1@gioia.aioe.org> <fssbkdFl26kU1@mid.individual.net> <pkbmlu$d5l$1@gioia.aioe.org> <7cudnSH91s0jWvTGnZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <pkdc26$15qf$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> wrote: > On 8/7/2018 12:24 PM, Tom Roberts wrote: >> On 8/7/18 3:53 AM, benj wrote: >>> Are you talking mathematics or physics? >> >> Both -- the mathematical structure of current physical theories and models. >> >>> Do you agree that agree with Odd that empty space containing no >>> charges and hence produces no forces on test charges is not devoid of >>> fields but actually is filled with an electric (an other types) of >>> fields whose value is simply zero? >> >> Yes. Because if you believe Maxwell's equations apply, or if you believe >> that QED applies, then you are FORCED to conclude there is a >> corresponding electromagnetic field everywhere, including regions in >> which it is zero (which really never happens). >> >> As I said before, this is INHERENT in what "field" means. >> >> Tom Roberts > > What you mean is that it is INHERENT in the definition what a vector > field is, mathematically. Or a scalar field, or a tensor field, physically. > (Note you must use the term vector field > because otherwise the term can be confused with an algebraic field which > is something else entirely, right?) > > A vector field starts with a region of some mathematical space and a > vector quantity is assigned to each point (an infinite number of them) > in that subspace. No, over the whole space. By definition. > Therefore, by definition the vector field exists > (assuming I have chosen to define one) even though all vectors at every > point are zero. You and Odd win, right? Of course if I choose NOT to > define a field in that space (reality is determined by my imagination, > right?) then there is no field in that subspace only a coordinate > system, unless I choose not to define one of those either, in which case > there is no subspace existing at all and I win, right? > > Wrong. Mathematics is not more real than reality. In reality and in > Maxwell theory in particular, the mathematics is only a model to > describe what seems to be force field like phenomena produced by > charges. You place too much primacy on forces as the anchor to reality. As has been pointed out by physicists for a couple of centuries, the description of dynamics in terms of forces and accelerations, or by momentum and energy exchange, or by the principle of least action and a Lagrangian, or by a Hamiltonian — these are all formally equivalent, with none of them being more “real” than the others. > People (Odd's textbooks) love to talk about "fields" as if they > were real physical things. They are NOT. That’s your opinion and your bias and yours alone. They are not MY textbooks, they are the textbooks of PHYSICISTS. And so if you say you are a trained physicist while rejecting the statements made by physicists in their training materials, one has to question the value of your training. > Forces are real, models are > fantasy. Bullshit. See above. > Hence when charges are missing, there are no forces present in > the subspace. People use the terminology that there are no "fields" > there but as seen above that is mathematically wrong on several counts > if someone has defined a null vector field there. And if a charge is > suddenly placed in that subspace it is known that forces from it will > NOT be measured immediately at a distance from it (unless we are talking > ESP interactions) as the actions travel away from the source at velocity c. I’ll give you a simple example. Suppose you have a region where there is a changing, nonzero value of electric field, and outside this region the value of the field is zero, or as you would have it, no field AT ALL. Maxwell’s equations will relate how the derivative with respect to time will be related to the spatial gradient of the magnetic field. Since there was no magnetic field there at all to begin with, what magnetic field is Maxwell’s equation relating to?? Likewise, let’s allow that there is a magnetic field somehow there now which is changing, then this will specify a gradient of an electric field, including in the region where you said there was nothing for there to be a gradient of! So what is Maxwell’s equation referring to, since there IS NO electricity field to specify a gradient for? Notice carefully that Maxwell’s equations do not indicate the CREATION of a field where there was none before. They simply relate the derivatives of fields that must ALREADY BE DEFINED in that region of space. > > I certainly can DEFINE my "field" to not be present until that force > arrives. My model. My fantasy. Generally people do this. In fact it's > worse than this because EM fields are NOT quite the mathematical ones. > Because forces must be measured with a "test" charge. And means there > are interactions on both charges. So how can one define a "force field" > from just a single charge? As Jackson points out, one must use a > calculus-like limit operation to obtain that for the field values. And > Lo, that means that all those values that you are using are in truth > total fantasy and not reality at all because of that calculation! I’ll give you another example that may help. Suppose you have a body in stable equilibrium someplace. There are no forces acting on this body. There are no accelerations. You can analyze this same situation with energy considerations. Are you going to say that because there are no forces on this body, then energy is just as meaningless as fields would be? Physicists don’t say so. Potential energy may be at a local minimum there, but energy is certainly defined and REAL. > > So now it's little wonder that genius Odd (and you) have decided that in > your lib fantasy worlds what only what you can imagine is the only thing > that is real? Needless to say this is the polar opposite of real science. I’m so amused that you say all the physics textbooks get this wrong, and are therefore the opposite of “real science”. What is this “real science” you were trained on, and what materials did you use to become trained in this “real science”? Or is this “real science” something that you have invented on your own, Ben? These are straightforward questions that you could at least be honest in answering. > > Does this set you guys straight? Yeah, I didn't really think it would. > > > > > -- Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 02:13 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sd> - 2018-08-05 12:08 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 13:06 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:10 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:33 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 18:07 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:23 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 22:43 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:39 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:45 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 12:50 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 08:27 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 14:13 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:23 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 17:47 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:32 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hp> - 2018-08-06 18:05 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:15 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 09:21 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-08-07 08:36 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:17 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-05 13:20 -0700
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:39 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-06 19:22 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 18:41 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-05 22:50 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:51 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-06 13:08 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-07 11:40 +1000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 01:49 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:53 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 10:02 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-07 08:55 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:05 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-07 11:24 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 16:56 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 20:04 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 09:05 +0200
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-08 17:14 +1000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 10:34 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:16 +0200
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 09:15 +1000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 19:57 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 11:48 +1000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 11:02 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-08 11:08 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 13:23 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:26 +0200
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-09 10:15 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:48 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-11 23:37 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:31 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:34 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-12 10:09 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-12 21:29 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Lovu Biftek <ufeli@fupuks.cl> - 2018-08-13 10:53 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 04:08 -0700
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 11:41 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 10:02 -0700
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 17:36 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 10:45 -0700
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-15 18:56 -0500
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 06:29 -0700
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 23:55 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 10:58 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 15:26 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:36 -0400
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 17:53 +0000
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-09 11:21 -0700
Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-08 11:12 +0000
Rub Odd's nose in it. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2018-08-16 20:34 -0700
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